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Seafaring for Women in Software Engineering – Part I – Performance and Promotion

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Re: Seafaring for Women in Software Engineering – Part I – Performance and Promotion

#11

Post by robertlagrant »

tictacttoe wrote: post #8

First, the author is right. This is the way the world works, and if you want to get ahead, play the game. But I have strong contempt for management throwing up their hands and saying “it’s your promotion, own it”. Usually the subtext is that they’ve created a promotion process which is onerous, they are under paying you market rate, and/or management doesn’t want to make hard decisions or uphold their side of the bar…

> it’s almost tempting me to apply elsewhere

People not doing this is why it stays as it is.

If you don't like your broadband provider; you change it. If you don't like a car brand; you don't buy it. You don't buy them and claim their deficiencies are unfair.

Re: Seafaring for Women in Software Engineering – Part I – Performance and Promotion

#12

Post by [deleted] »

austin-cheney wrote: post #6

That is excellent advice but the article doesn’t explain why this should apply more for females, and that is crucial. As a male that scores higher in the agreeability personality metric than the average female and that females average much higher in that metric than males cross-culturally I am in a unique position to reflect on this. People that measure higher in agreeability do worse at administering their own needs…

[deleted]

Re: Seafaring for Women in Software Engineering – Part I – Performance and Promotion

#13

Post by tialaramex »

robertlagrant wrote: post #11
tictacttoe wrote: post #8

First, the author is right. This is the way the world works, and if you want to get ahead, play the game. But I have strong contempt for management throwing up their hands and saying “it’s your promotion, own it”. Usually the subtext is that they’ve created a promotion process which is onerous, they are under paying you market rate, and/or management doesn’t want to make hard decisions or uphold their side of the bar…

> it’s almost tempting me to apply elsewhere People not doing this is why it stays as it is. If you don't like your broadband provider; you change it. If you don't like a car brand; you don't buy it. You don't buy them and claim their deficiencies are unfair.

This could work if there is an accessible alternative that's better which there may not be.

Demanding change can also work, and regardless of whether better alternatives exist.

"Just move to a country where women can vote" was not an effective strategy, demanding the vote worked for a huge number of women without them even moving to the next town.

Re: Seafaring for Women in Software Engineering – Part I – Performance and Promotion

#14

Post by datavirtue »

The notion of these regimented promotions is ridiculous. The only reason anyone should be "promoted" is for generating value and the potential to generate even more value in their next position. This whole expecting a promotion, and employment in general, is not very dignified. No one should be promoted at all unless they are gunning for it.

Re: Seafaring for Women in Software Engineering – Part I – Performance and Promotion

#15

Post by aardvark179 »

yodsanklai wrote: post #3

> It is not in their interest to promote you or give you a raise unless you ask for it. In my "big tech" company, it's in the interest of my manager that reports are promoted. The question of promotion is discussed at every evaluation cycle (6 months). We usually decide of a plan with the manager to have the right signals to show for the next cycle. Also, not mentioned in the article, but is it an heresy not wanting…

Not wanting to be promoted is fine, but it does come at a cost because along with that extra responsibility you may also be sacrificing influence over the things you do care about. You can still have that influence through other ways, but it takes work and may involve all the things you were trying to avoid by not getting promoted.

N.B. I’m not saying that higher up ICs influence things by coming in and saying, “I am an IC6 and I think we should do it this way,” but they often have more opportunities to have the right conversations, and have hopefully learned good influencing skills along with technical skills.

Re: Seafaring for Women in Software Engineering – Part I – Performance and Promotion

#16

Post by robertlagrant »

tialaramex wrote: post #13
robertlagrant wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s almost tempting me to apply elsewhere People not doing this is why it stays as it is. If you don't like your broadband provider; you change it. If you don't like a car brand; you don't buy it. You don't buy them and claim their deficiencies are unfair.

This could work if there is an accessible alternative that's better which there may not be. Demanding change can also work, and regardless of whether better alternatives exist. "Just move to a country where women can vote" was not an effective strategy, demanding the vote worked for a huge number of women without them even moving to the next town.

Yes, if there's only one employer in the entire country then you're stuck. If the context is a communist country I'm happy to modify the advice. Except even then it's still "leave the employer and go somewhere else".

Re: Seafaring for Women in Software Engineering – Part I – Performance and Promotion

#17

Post by ilammy »

robertlagrant wrote: post #16
tialaramex wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This could work if there is an accessible alternative that's better which there may not be. Demanding change can also work, and regardless of whether better alternatives exist. "Just move to a country where women can vote" was not an effective strategy, demanding the vote worked for a huge number of women without them even moving to the next town.

Yes, if there's only one employer in the entire country then you're stuck. If the context is a communist country I'm happy to modify the advice. Except even then it's still "leave the employer and go somewhere else".

Not just more than one employer, but some healthy number of available options.

You thought A is great but you think you can find better so you go to B. They turned out worse, you then tried C and those weren't great either. But now A won't hire you back because they already filled the position, and there are no other available companies doing the thing you want to do. Now you're stuck with inferior employment options compared to the choice of not changing jobs in the first place, unless you're willing to do something else entirely or start your own business.

Depends on the field obviously, but there are reasons why people might want to stick with a not-so-bad job instead of looking for a perfect one.

Re: Seafaring for Women in Software Engineering – Part I – Performance and Promotion

#18

Post by robertlagrant »

ilammy wrote: post #17
robertlagrant wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if there's only one employer in the entire country then you're stuck. If the context is a communist country I'm happy to modify the advice. Except even then it's still "leave the employer and go somewhere else".

Not just more than one employer, but some healthy number of available options. You thought A is great but you think you can find better so you go to B. They turned out worse, you then tried C and those weren't great either. But now A won't hire you back because they already filled the position, and there are no other available companies doing the thing you want to do. Now you're stuck with inferior employment options…

Of course - and employers have the same issue with employees. We don't have perfect information, but having conversations with alternate employers' employees helps. Just try and find stuff out. It's not going to be perfect, but it's also hard to imagine a better system that can work in practice.
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