Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection

quantamagazine.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 180 posts

Re: The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection

#161

Post by simple10 »

mkl wrote: post #116
simple10 wrote: post #45

For anecdotal data, I'm a big fan of Apollo Neuro. It's a small band worn on the wrist or ankle and vibrates to stimulate the vagus nerve. Similar effect to tapping on your wrist. The sleep mode seems to improve my deep sleep scores on my Oura ring. I haven't done any proper data analysis to confirm. Apollo Neuro claims to have lab data proving efficacy: https://apolloneuro.com/pages/science Even if it's more of a pl…

The vagus nerve doesn't go anywhere near your wrists or ankles, and that science page doesn't mention the vagus nerve at all.

Correct, the vagus nerve itself doesn't extend into wrists and legs AFAIK, but other nerves connect to it. Wrist tapping and acupuncture stimulation of points on the wrists are quite common. I'm assuming devices like Apollo Neuro target a similar effect on those pressure points on wrist and ankles.

Here's a random article about vagus nerve and acupuncture [1]. I'm not sure about actual pubmed type studies. On a personal level, I think these devices are well worth giving a try. Just pick one with a good return policy if it doesn't work for you.

[1] https://www.morningsideacupuncturenyc.com/blog/acupuncture-a....

Re: The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection

#162

Post by devilbunny »

bookofjoe wrote: post #136
devilbunny wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why we use ultrasound on practically every block we do today.

For perspective, when I learned to do nerve blocks (UCLA Department of Anesthesiology, 1977-1980 residency), portable ultrasound for guidance was a pipe dream. For the axillary approach to brachial plexus blocks, we tried to elicit paresthesias from actual needle impaction on nerves and then pulled back a tad and injected a bolus of anesthetic. We did that repeatedly, aiming to deposit anesthetic near each branch of…

Oh, sure. From U/S experience I would guess that transarterial method was probably the most likely to work. Never did one, but was taught the concept and it looks like it would work.

Did femorals and popliteals by stim, it was quicker than ultrasound. Now that we have ultrasound everywhere, there’s no reason not to use it.

Residency 06-09.

One facility I worked at had a family medicine guy who was in the National Guard who asked me about field treatment. I mentioned Valium rather than Versed for reducing dislocations and fractures, and said that he really should find someone to teach him interscalenes by stim, I would teach him popliteals. Just to get those ankle fractures and dislocated shoulders comfortable until they could be evacuated (this is training, not combat, so plenty of troops don’t get moved until next day at least). Unfortunately this was as U/S was really becoming standard of care so it would be hard to justify teaching stim for a brachial plexus block - but he can’t fit that u/s in a field kit.

Re: The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection

#163

Post by devilbunny »

vinay_ys wrote: post #140
bookofjoe wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For perspective, when I learned to do nerve blocks (UCLA Department of Anesthesiology, 1977-1980 residency), portable ultrasound for guidance was a pipe dream. For the axillary approach to brachial plexus blocks, we tried to elicit paresthesias from actual needle impaction on nerves and then pulled back a tad and injected a bolus of anesthetic. We did that repeatedly, aiming to deposit anesthetic near each branch of…

Surprised to find a bunch of anesthesiologists hanging around here. How come?

Last time I counted there were three or four of us, but bookofjoe is a prolific reader and poster courtesy of being retired.

We have a lot of down time during the day, just in very short increments. Thus the stereotype that we’re all crossword/Sudoku nerds. HN is something you can pick up and put down in a moment.

Also, I have always thought of the job as a sort of human engineering, or a big physiology lab. Programmers have REPL; we have vital sign monitors for instant feedback. Thankfully it is difficult to crash a human accidentally.

People think doctors bought computers early because they were rich. They could, but it’s worth remembering that if you were a science-and-math kid in the post-WW2 era, medicine and engineering would be the fields you would be pushed toward. That is not as prominent now as tech has started paying better and medicine less, but it’s still not terrible reasoning. I would have to screw up a lot to be unemployable, even if it did take me a lot of school to get to that point. Doctors bought computers because they looked fun.

Only one of my partners has an engineering degree (MechE). I majored in chemistry. Two pharmacists, one accountant. Don’t know about the rest.

Re: The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection

#164

Post by computerdork »

__turbobrew__ wrote: post #81
computerdork wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My story is very similar. Have had tons of pain and muscle related problems for decades - played a ton of sports like you when i was a kid, and did a lot of physical risk-taking too (skateboarding, bmx-style biking taking them off jump-ramps...) and also had lots of injuries. On top of chronic pain, I had (and still have but is greatly reduced) muscle clenching on the left side of my body - for some reason my body on…

How did you go about finding problematic nerves? I have had issues with nerve pain in my left leg for about 7 years now, did the full gamut of MRI s, bone scans, CT scans, ultrasound and saw about 5 different specialists including a neurologist and nobody has been able to help me. Exercise definitely helps but it doesn’t actually seem to turn the nerves off, just desensitize them. Sitting is very painful as I get pai…

There are many things that I and the doctors did to figure these spots out (and we're still in the process of locating a few last key spots). Oh, one thing though, I have a hard time giving this info out nowadays, as people often just take the info and run - And am not sure of your gender, but honestly, it's guys especially. Think it's an independence thing, need to feel like they did it all on their own, which I get actually. Yeah, I'm a guy and have this instinct too, but still doesn't change the fact that they take this info and then act like it didn't help at all...

... although, just read loceng's comment. He definitely has part of the path I found too, so this could be enough (diagnostic nerve blocks is a key). But if you're really serious about getting more info, than feel free to provide with a way to contact you. Thanks.

Re: The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection

#165

Post by computerdork »

loceng wrote: post #156
__turbobrew__ wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you go about finding problematic nerves? I have had issues with nerve pain in my left leg for about 7 years now, did the full gamut of MRI s, bone scans, CT scans, ultrasound and saw about 5 different specialists including a neurologist and nobody has been able to help me. Exercise definitely helps but it doesn’t actually seem to turn the nerves off, just desensitize them. Sitting is very painful as I get pai…

A good peripheral nerve specialist will direct the diagnostic nerve blocks, and he prefers you use his pain management guy who he trusts is doing the nerve blocks properly - so you're getting an actual proper diagnostic response from patient. Dr. Tollestrup in Las Vegas would be my recommendation - I've done 7 surgeries with him so far. To note, every doctor I've encountered isn't perfect - in this case with Tollestr…

Agreed loceng, diagnostic nerve blocks is a key:)

Re: The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection

#166

Post by [deleted] »

koliber wrote: post #102
portn0y wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gradients, spectrums, distributions; oh my

Gradients, spectrums and distributions describe the quantifiable diversity in humans. People have different heights, weights, eye colors, and other numerically measurable qualities. We’re exposed to this and it’s not surprising. What this thread is talking about is things like extra fingers, missing or extra nerves and muscles, and varying structural differences. I recently started learning a lot about the muscular a…

[deleted]

Re: The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection

#167

Post by devilbunny »

meroes wrote: post #91
devilbunny wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why we use ultrasound on practically every block we do today.

Is ultra sound that little monitor they/you look at while the needle thing is in your arm to apply the nerve block? That process a bit unnerving no pun intended. I thought maybe since my arm had been tweaked by being in a full arm cast for a month even with the screen they weren’t going to find it.

Yes. You can see the needle, see the tissues. Nerves sometimes aren’t visible right where you want to block them, but if you can see them headed in the right direction and then see the structures they are supposed to be (and usually, though not always, are) near, you can make good guesses and get results.

Re: The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection

#168

Post by sys64739 »

clarkrinker wrote: post #31

I was looking for research papers for the 9 non invasive vagus stimulators I get ads for on instagram. Anyone have success with these for anxiety/depression

I'm using a Dolphin Neurostim VNS to recover from COVID-induced anxiety. I'm getting better over time, especially my sleep, so maybe it's working? I had really bad depression for a while too, and that's mostly cleared up. It's not cheap but it's an FDA approved therapy for a number of conditions.

It sends microcurrent (literally - millionths of an amp) through the two halves of the vagus nerve via the left tragus to the left wrist, and from the right concha to the belly. Each half takes about fifteen minutes.

When I started using it I had some weird moments where my heart would skip a beat, but I ramped up the treatment durations over a couple weeks and now the treatments are uneventful.

Supposedly it's much safer than TENS units which deal with currents that can overload your nervous system.

BTW, look into Silexan lavender oil too ("Calm Aid"). Supposedly better therapeutic outcomes than prescription antidepressants and anxiolytics, especially at 160mg doses.

Re: The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection

#170

Post by latentsea »

ProllyInfamous wrote: post #26
nojs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does one get this chance?

Multiple options, including: attend medical school; become employed by an anatomy farm. As for "chance of being hacked apart," anybody can donate their cadaver to science — most facilities require prior enrollment and will recover the corpse, nationwide. You might end up sold into scientific experimentation... if you're morbidly obese (e.g.) you won't be used for student anatomy (if you care).

What, pray tell, is an "anatomy farm"!???
Post reply on HN