Live data from Hacker News

Einstein's Other Theory of Everything

nautil.us

121–130 of 138 posts

Re: Einstein's Other Theory of Everything

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> maintained a kind of polarization state between each other over a long distance, where the observation of one of them caused a state change at the other "end". this idea of remote causality Operating on one half of an entangled pair does not transmit information to the other half. Therefore, the is no action or causation. Choices of vocabulary which imply otherwise are incorrect. It also doesn't work by "hidden var…

Whether there is any kind of action on the entangled counterpart is not actually answered by quantum mechanics, and depends on the interpretation. For example, in the Copenhagen interpretation there is an action (measuring one half of the pair causes the others waveform to instantly collapse), but in the Many Worlds interpretation there is no causal action, because observation is just a new entanglement between the o…

The math is clear that there is no information transfer.

The various interpretations are ways of trying to map what actually happens onto easily-understandable descriptions using standard classical-world vocabulary, which doesn't work very well because QM has fundamental differences from the macroscopic world that we live in and drive our language from. Where they disagree with eachother or with the math is because those mappings aren't perfect.

Re: Einstein's Other Theory of Everything

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether there is any kind of action on the entangled counterpart is not actually answered by quantum mechanics, and depends on the interpretation. For example, in the Copenhagen interpretation there is an action (measuring one half of the pair causes the others waveform to instantly collapse), but in the Many Worlds interpretation there is no causal action, because observation is just a new entanglement between the o…

The math is clear that there is no information transfer. The various interpretations are ways of trying to map what actually happens onto easily-understandable descriptions using standard classical-world vocabulary, which doesn't work very well because QM has fundamental differences from the macroscopic world that we live in and drive our language from. Where they disagree with eachother or with the math is because t…

Just because there is no information transfer does not mean there is no action, it just means that this action does not break causality.

Re: Einstein's Other Theory of Everything

#123
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "balls on a rubber sheet" is a pain because nothing is in free-fall The balls on a rubber sheet model is actually really great, but not in the way it's typically presented (rolling a ball down the curvature). Instead, just use a pen to draw lines to show the concept of geodesics. Start like this: 1. Imagine that you can move without friction if you stay at the same vertical level. 2. Draw a line on a flat rubbe…

Same level relative to what? This model of gravity requires gravity to work.

To be precise, it needs a force that would bend the rubber sheet. You can use a spring to do that if you want.

Re: Einstein's Other Theory of Everything

#124

I'm surprised Sabine doesn't mention the way fermions are treated in Loop Quantum Gravity [1][2]. My understanding is they are treated as "non-local" or open loops of gravitational force, and thus entry and exit points in space-time. This makes them conceptually similar to the "wormhole model" of matter that Einstein and Rosen originally described. [1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/9404010 [2] https://arxiv.org/pdf/101…

My understanding is that this is the way fermions are treated in any modern theory of quantum gravity, and not specific to LQG?

Not sure what you mean, are you talking about ER = EPR? I think that's mostly a way of accounting for entanglement between particles, but it doesn't create the particles to begin with like in LQG. But my string theory knowledge is probably out of date, so I could be wrong.

Re: Einstein's Other Theory of Everything

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The math is clear that there is no information transfer. The various interpretations are ways of trying to map what actually happens onto easily-understandable descriptions using standard classical-world vocabulary, which doesn't work very well because QM has fundamental differences from the macroscopic world that we live in and drive our language from. Where they disagree with eachother or with the math is because t…

Just because there is no information transfer does not mean there is no action, it just means that this action does not break causality.

Redefining words like that makes the resulting explanations misleading outside the narrow circle who already know enough to be aware of and understand the redefinition.

Re: Einstein's Other Theory of Everything

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that this is the way fermions are treated in any modern theory of quantum gravity, and not specific to LQG?

Not sure what you mean, are you talking about ER = EPR? I think that's mostly a way of accounting for entanglement between particles, but it doesn't create the particles to begin with like in LQG. But my string theory knowledge is probably out of date, so I could be wrong.

You already related the “(open)loop quantization” in LQG to EPR=ER above, similar concept occurs in string theory too, almost unknown because its so foundational, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born–Infeld_model, near the end, as well as some of the references there that discuss gravity.

“Creating” is a vague(r) term, do you mean “quantization”? Afaik the open-loop geometry of fermions is something any quantization scheme has to start with, the details are how one includes gravity, so without more details, one wouldnt be able to tell how LQG is different from string theory :)

Re: Einstein's Other Theory of Everything

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the glory Einstein deserves as one of the greatest minds I find more interesting the history of this supposed "failure" in later life, but it's even more admirable his tenacity at trying to tackle the problem at different angles for decades. And boy it must be a hard problem if Einstein himself could not crack it!

There's some argument that Einstein was in the right place at the right time. Mercury was wobbly, and there was about fifty years of non-euclidean geometry research built up, including (eg) Riemann breaking ground on differential geometry. Maybe matter didn't crack because the right tools weren't available.

> including (eg) Riemann breaking ground on differential geometry.

And also Poincaré getting close to it.

Re: Einstein's Other Theory of Everything

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't just plug numbers into Coulomb's Law for this case, because Coulomb's Law by itself is not relativistically correct. Sorry if this is a bit pedantic, but as someone trying to study this at the moment, I don't see this the same way and I'd like to validate my interpretation: You can just plug numbers into Coulomb's law, that part is correct. But then the problem of infinite velocities comes from interpreti…

Hi greysphere, you are definitely correct that one primary thing preventing velocity of the electron from exceeding than the speed of light is the presence of gamma in the relativistic force law, aka \partial_t (m_e \gamma v ) = q_e(E + v \times B), although the LHS doesn't quite equal \gamma m_e a, since \gamma also depends on v... In general I think it's fine to use Coulomb's law as an approximation in this case be…

Thanks for the explanation of some of the interactions I was missing! It's amazing the complexity of what's basically the simplest setup one could think of.

Re: Einstein's Other Theory of Everything

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the glory Einstein deserves as one of the greatest minds I find more interesting the history of this supposed "failure" in later life, but it's even more admirable his tenacity at trying to tackle the problem at different angles for decades. And boy it must be a hard problem if Einstein himself could not crack it!

There's some argument that Einstein was in the right place at the right time. Mercury was wobbly, and there was about fifty years of non-euclidean geometry research built up, including (eg) Riemann breaking ground on differential geometry. Maybe matter didn't crack because the right tools weren't available.

Einstein solved three very different open problems in one year: the photoelectric effect, Brownian motion, and special relativity.

Others may have gotten close to one of these solutions, but nobody else came anywhere close on all three.

General Relativity as his own research programme was designed to capture the consequences of constraining the speed of propagation of changes of gravitational influence; it was literally about relativizing gravity. GR was not designed to explain Mercury specifically (or even really motivated by Mercury), the theory just happened to explain why its orbit traces out a daisy-like pattern rather than a perfect ellipse. GR also correctly predicted a deflection of background starlight around the limb of the sun (1919 eclipse and eclipses since), stellar gravitational redshift (Sirius-B initially, many many objects since), and gravitational redshifts induced by Earth (all reliable results were posthumous: Pound-Rebka and similar since 1959, and more recently precision lunar and satellite ranging).

Indeed, Einstein liked to explain that his mental toy in understanding relativistic gravitation was someone jumping off the roof of a house, or the behaviour of things (e.g. flashlights/torches) riding in office-tower elevators/lifts (which date from the 1870s). That's a far cry from precision measurement of Mercury's perihelion!

There were no real astrophysical or terrestrial problems calling out for General Relativity. Even after General Relativity was a published theory, real gravitational problems were solved with low-order correcting terms to Newtonian gravitation and with linearization: an approach which Einstein practically invented, and which he used himself when thinking and writing about early problems in cosmology (the discovery of Cepheid variables opened up a lot of those).

There were quickly alternatives to General Relativity which predicted some but not all of these early classical tests of the theory. Eddington's 1922 book was the first shot in a body of literature analysing different theories of gravitation and how they differ in their predictions of dozens of tests of General Relativity. Will's work in particular is useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parameterized_post-Newtonian_f... -- you can see how it's used in practice in this open access paper https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-02558-1

That said, there are mathematical tools available now that weren't available to Einstein in the early 20th century, and he might have chosen to arrive at a different (but equivalent) formulation of General Relativity. The standard Hamiltonian and a variety of modern Lagrangian formulations are particularly useful, and it could have been nice to have had https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_value_formulation_(gen...> before the 1960s (even though it arguably only shines brighter when you have 21st century supercomputers).

Indeed, one can imagine Einstein starting with Lie theory, such that Special Relativity from the start is just the theory of spacetime with SO(3,1) symmetry at every point. But Cartan, Killing, and Noether came decades later and were motivated by Einstein. And quite a bit of group theory developed as the Standard Model developed after Einstein was already dead (notably Goldstone's theorem, 1960s). So to first formulate General Relativity as a GL(4,R) group theory with spontaneous symmetry breaking to SO(3,1) one would need to rearrange an awful lot of physics history.

Any of these alternative-universe mathematical origins would just have been using different tools to arrive at the central result: we inhabit a Lorentzian spacetime in which there is an exact matching of moving matter and a metric tensor (at each point in spacetime) encoding durations, spatial lengths, and angles, or the equivalent set of orthonormal vector/covector fields.

And worse, the physical content of the theory -- however formulated -- probably would still have been considered interesting but practically useless until the 1970s.

Re: Einstein's Other Theory of Everything

#130
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so the electron is now bound to the proton This is extremely unlikely unless the relative motion is very slow, or, to put it another way, the total center of mass energy is very close to the rest energy of electron + proton, so there is a significant probability amplitude for capture into a bound hydrogen atom. The post I originally responded to was obviously not considering such a case since it claimed the electro…

If the electron starts with zero energy at infinity (e.g. a parabolic orbit, a natural default assumption), and some of the potential energy is converted into free EM radiation due to acceleration of the electron as it is falling down the potential well, then it will become bound to the proton. My reading of phkahler's original statement is that the electron will wind up going faster than the speed of light (which is…

> If the electron starts with zero energy at infinity...it will become bound to the proton

Even if that's true (I'm not sure it always is--see below), that case is extremely rare. A much more common case is Bremsstrahlung, which you mentioned upthread--and as the Wikipedia article you referenced notes, the electron in this process starts out free and remains free after the radiation is emitted; it does not become bound to the proton.

> My reading of phkahler's original statement is that the electron will wind up going faster than the speed of light (which is incorrect, due to gamma) due to falling down the potential well, and not due to having non-zero kinetic energy at infinity...

That may have been the original intent, yes (and, as you note, it's wrong because it neglects the gamma factor). However, even in that case, what matters is not the electron's energy at infinity in the proton's rest frame, but its energy in the center of mass frame. If the electron is really falling in from far enough away that the relativistic gamma factor is relevant, which is what was implied by pkahler's original statement, then its energy in the center of mass frame (or more precisely the center of momentum frame, since in relativity you have to take momentum and energy into account) will be relativistic, i.e., large enough that it's by no means guaranteed that it will emit enough energy in radiation to become bound to the proton.

Post reply on HN