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EFF taking on software patent reform

defendinnovation.org

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Re: EFF taking on software patent reform

#12
This seems like a good first step.

I never understood why people think we should try and abolish software patents. We can't. Period. There's too much money in them. We can attempt to reform or reshape them so they are less destructive, but crying for total abolition seems to be akin to attempting to abolish the IRS. It might make sense in a perfect world, but it will never, ever happen.

Re: EFF taking on software patent reform

#13
post #3

EFF's position is too moderate. 5 year monopoly on software ideas? If not even the EFF is willing to take an unequivocal stance against software patents, the trolls and the system will keep their legitimacy. We should not be afraid to take (seemingly) radical positions. Fear of offending the status quo is what keeps it in place. Not too long ago the idea of patenting a theorem or a gene was dubious; the moderates may…

Extreme positions can typically only be accomplished in dire times. Outside of an extremely dire scenario, what you'll accomplish by taking the abolish software patents position, is nothing.

If you want to make progress, the EFF is taking the right tact. If you want to be idealistic (and that's fine I'll emphasize), then stick to your guns and you'll see zero progress, but your ideals will still be intact.

Re: EFF taking on software patent reform

#14
post #3

EFF's position is too moderate. 5 year monopoly on software ideas? If not even the EFF is willing to take an unequivocal stance against software patents, the trolls and the system will keep their legitimacy. We should not be afraid to take (seemingly) radical positions. Fear of offending the status quo is what keeps it in place. Not too long ago the idea of patenting a theorem or a gene was dubious; the moderates may…

So, good engineers know what happens if you try to just take a complex system and change everything at once, instead of incrementally. Certainly government does (witness the number of "hey let's start from scratch and come up with a much better system" that are 10+ years overdue and many billions over budget). The RIAA/MPAA knows too (make small-medium sized changes using bills that push in the direction they want until it's death by 50 cuts).

Yet, I always see otherwise rational people wanting to just blow the patent system up. What makes you think this is a goal achievable in one step? Why isn't the EFF position a good starting point to get there eventually?

Just because the system sucks really badly doesn't mean you'll be able to change it in one fell swoop. Doing that with healthcare in the US took 20+ years, and we arguably did not end up with a better system, just a bunch of incremental improvements.

Re: EFF taking on software patent reform

#15

If we're going to be moderate about this, the source code should need to be public and open sourced after the term of the patent expires.

I think that's probably covered by this: "Patent applicants should be required to provide an example of running software code for each claim in the patent and tell the Patent Office which claims are covered by which lines of that code."

The reference implementation in the patent itself would almost certainly be public domain once the patent expired.

Re: EFF taking on software patent reform

#16
post #3

EFF's position is too moderate. 5 year monopoly on software ideas? If not even the EFF is willing to take an unequivocal stance against software patents, the trolls and the system will keep their legitimacy. We should not be afraid to take (seemingly) radical positions. Fear of offending the status quo is what keeps it in place. Not too long ago the idea of patenting a theorem or a gene was dubious; the moderates may…

What they're doing here is good strategy.

Option A:

EFF: "Hey, legislators, you should abolish this system that we've had for decades and you don't understand. Let me tell you why the interlocking parts of a software algorithm are totally different from the interlocking parts of a car engine ..."

Patent Trolls: "This is a pie-in-the-sky proposal that would never work in practice and would undercut our economy in the one area where we're seriously dominant! [1]."

Option B:

EFF: "Hey, legislators, our economy depends on software, and patents are screwing it up. Software moves really fast, so we should limit the time a patent lasts to five years. And lots of the things that are getting patented are really obvious, so if something is so obvious that someone else invents it independently, they should be allowed to use it -- that will avoid the need for lawyers to review every single program that gets written. And software projects are often incredibly huge, so we should make it so millions of dollars won't be awarded for a violation that consists of .001% of the project. Can we hold some hearings to talk about this stuff?"

Patent Trolls: "These are pie-in-the-sky proposals that would never work in practice! Hang on while I try to come up with a reason for that."

Option B is 1000 times more likely to get us in the door. And once public hearings start and legislators actually start to have some idea what the issue is, that's our chance to make the case (in the media, through lobbying, and through testimony) that we'd be better off without software patents at all.[2]

[1] "... other than music and pizza delivery, obviously."

[2] If this is true. It's totally possible that, within the boundaries the EFF is proposing -- short-lived, open-source, non-obvious, damage-limited, subject to prior art up to 2007 -- software patents would actually become a force for good, in complex areas like compression, encryption, language processing etc. A game where highly-funded research programs are racing to stay 5 years ahead of open source projects that incorporate all their best ideas could be pretty sweet. It's worth discussing anyway.

Re: EFF taking on software patent reform

#17
post #11

It is already against the rules to patent an algorithm, as they are considered mathematics and thus unpatentable. The reform we need is just better application of the existing patent rules.

Anyone know the legal distinction between an algorithm, which is not patentable, and a business method/process, which apparently is?

I wonder if a viable legal strategy could be to have the definition of the former extended to the latter in some way.

Re: EFF taking on software patent reform

#18
Number 4 is a tragically bad idea: "Infringers should avoid liability if they independently arrive at the patented invention." I love the EFF (and donate) but as a litigator it appears entirely unworkable. The root problem is that this proposal commingles the standards for copyright and patents. In copyright law, independent creation means there was no copying, and thus no infringement. Patents (sw or otherwise) are entirely different and exist for different purposes. Patents protect early work done by inventors from poaching by later (or larger) entrants. The inherent tradeoff is that the inventor must disclose to the world how his invention works in exchange for receiving a limited time period of market exclusivity. (EFF #1 is spot-on that the current time period is too long for software). However, the EFF is saying "If inventors can’t understand a patent, then they, as a matter of logic, cannot copy it. Likewise, if inventors don’t know about a patent, they cannot copy it." If all inventors required was copy protection, they could rely on existing copyright law. Patent protection is important because it protects 'non-literal' duplication through the doctrine of equivalents and other established principles. Done right, a patent system should protect small inventors whose creation is groundbreaking in their industry, but that could be easily reverse-engineered or duplicated by the big players based simply on recreating the inventor's product without literal copying. TiVo vs. cable DVRs is a good example.

Re: EFF taking on software patent reform

#19
post #16
post #3

EFF's position is too moderate. 5 year monopoly on software ideas? If not even the EFF is willing to take an unequivocal stance against software patents, the trolls and the system will keep their legitimacy. We should not be afraid to take (seemingly) radical positions. Fear of offending the status quo is what keeps it in place. Not too long ago the idea of patenting a theorem or a gene was dubious; the moderates may…

What they're doing here is good strategy. Option A: EFF: "Hey, legislators, you should abolish this system that we've had for decades and you don't understand. Let me tell you why the interlocking parts of a software algorithm are totally different from the interlocking parts of a car engine ..." Patent Trolls: "This is a pie-in-the-sky proposal that would never work in practice and would undercut our economy in the…

Besides the above, which is completely and utterly true, legislators often want consensus, if they can get it (I realize how crazy this sounds, given the way bills often end up). They don't want to be forced to pick sides when it's large companies that support one side vs other large companies that support the other. Not just because of the lobbying money involved, but because they think they are trying to do the right thing, and if it's 25 folks they trust on one side of an issue, and 25 on the other, they aren't likely to do anything.

Re: EFF taking on software patent reform

#20
post #18

Number 4 is a tragically bad idea: "Infringers should avoid liability if they independently arrive at the patented invention." I love the EFF (and donate) but as a litigator it appears entirely unworkable. The root problem is that this proposal commingles the standards for copyright and patents. In copyright law, independent creation means there was no copying, and thus no infringement. Patents (sw or otherwise) are…

I agree wholeheartedly.

Slightly off topic, but there is a general modification of IPR law that I've never seen discussed but that I think could affect some very interesting change: simply require that licenses are available to all on reasonable and equal terms. For every registered patent or copyright there would also be a license template, ready to fill in, with payment details, preferably machine readable...

You could apply that principle to copyright as well as patent rights. The consequence for copyright would be e.g. that large record labels would be forced to license their music to all online services, or not at all. If the government enforces a "monopoly" then why not also enforce an even playing field?

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