Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla • Hacker News Board

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#551

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Sep 01, 2024, 4:30 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #308

rbalicki wrote: post #6

Genuine question: What is stopping some small percent of drivers from installing cameras and using ML to identify cars driving dangerously (e.g. speeding, running reds, changing multiple lanes at once, etc.), and when their license plate is identifiable, finding and informing their insurance company? If even a small subset of users did this, and insurers did something with this information, it would substantially dis…

It's so very HN that we get into fits about Google and Facebook and Apple and so on tracking us to make a buck, but the idea of an insurance company deputizing millions of cameras to perform mass surveillance to make a buck is suddenly okay because drivers that make us angry on the road get hurt by it. The obvious answer to this proposal is that I believe that I have a right to not be monitored and penalized by auton…

[deleted]

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#552

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Sep 01, 2024, 4:42 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #461

harmmonica wrote: post #247

As a somewhat regular user of Waymo, these types of conversations seem like they're going to be more and more in the (sorry!) rearview mirror because we won't own the car nor the cameras that are recording the world as we "drive" around. That's not to say that we should give up fighting for some level of privacy even when we don't own the cars, but seems more likely that legislation would be passed that forces the ve…

> This commentary assumes self-driving cars are here to stay and become the de facto way we drive instead of driving ourselves. This seems like an extremely myopic "tech bubble" take to me. I'm trying to find a way to put this so that it doesn't sound like an attack, but have you been to suburban or rural areas outside of places like SF, NYC or Phoenix? Being reliant on third party transportation, on roads the are of…

This is fun because until the last couple of decades, private transportation wasn’t very common in China at all, people simply didn’t own their own cars and taxis were (and still are) ubiquitous even in small rural towns (though they might be breadbox vans to supplement shared minibuses). Almost everyone was relying in third party transportation and even today most still are.

And really, this kind of thing was common in most countries and turned out America (along with Canada, Australia) are the odd ones out with almost ubiquitous private car ownership in most of its area.

I have no idea how self driving taxis will change the USA, but I rode in my first Waymo last week on a trip to SF and it felt very real. Having lived in a country where I took a taxi to work everyday, I can totally see that life working for me (since I already lived it anyways).

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#553

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Sep 01, 2024, 4:47 PM UTC

chias wrote: post #517

grecy wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is a nonstarter for probably most of the US population. I disagree. I grew up in Rural Australia, lived in the Yukon and have driven to many of the world's most remote and undeveloped countries. You are saying "Self driving cars will NEVER work in " When what you mean to say is "Self driving cars will first work in the easy cases, and then years later will work in more and more cases until they eventually work ever…

While self driving cars are provided by private companies, self driving cars will first work in the profitable cases, and then years later will still only work in the profitable cases.

With scale and time, the tech gets cheaper and the number profitable cases continues to increase. As long as it isn’t human labor intensive (and it’s not), they can expand profitable territory almost indefinitely.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#554

Post by klyrs » Sun, Sep 01, 2024, 4:49 PM UTC

righthand wrote: post #546

klyrs wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thought someone was attacking me so I destroyed the device. Funny thing about that government property you destroyed... it was broadcasting the evidence it collected.

The police department won’t have sophisticated government drones for at least another 20 years, that is if expensive drones prove to be worth the effort and cost to allow civilian level law enforcement to have one. The point of this conversation isn’t to trump how you can get around my lie. The point is that I can lie to get out of any spurious law enforcement pursuits, and that is freedom. A drone isn’t impossible t…

> The point is that I can lie to get out of any spurious law enforcement pursuits, and that is freedom.

You know that police are known for their brutality in both rural and urban environs, right? My dad lied to the cops when he lived out in the boonies and he got the shit kicked out of him and was thrown in jail on bullshit charges. He was released the next day, but his rib wouldn't heal for weeks.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#555

Post by harmmonica » Sun, Sep 01, 2024, 4:52 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #461

harmmonica wrote: post #247

As a somewhat regular user of Waymo, these types of conversations seem like they're going to be more and more in the (sorry!) rearview mirror because we won't own the car nor the cameras that are recording the world as we "drive" around. That's not to say that we should give up fighting for some level of privacy even when we don't own the cars, but seems more likely that legislation would be passed that forces the ve…

> This commentary assumes self-driving cars are here to stay and become the de facto way we drive instead of driving ourselves. This seems like an extremely myopic "tech bubble" take to me. I'm trying to find a way to put this so that it doesn't sound like an attack, but have you been to suburban or rural areas outside of places like SF, NYC or Phoenix? Being reliant on third party transportation, on roads the are of…

No attack taken. Fair question. I'm in a bubble at the moment because I'm located in one of the few areas where Waymo is available (think that qualifies as a (tech) bubble any way you look at it). But I feel like experiencing this tech answers a lot of questions about what is and isn't possible (or better yet what is and what will be possible with self-driving cars).

Also, I work in a very rural environment that couldn't be more hostile to self-driving cars, at least as I thought about them before riding in Waymos (an example: where I stay when I work there I have to give people turn by turn directions because if you rely on Google or Apple Maps your car will get stuck on a road with foot-deep ruts where you'll need to be pulled out; I mean it's not driving on those crazy roads in Pakistan you see videos about (never been) but I would be willing to bet those roads, which I transit regularly, are amongst the poorer-quality roads in the US and I can see self-driving tech working there before long).

And I have spent a few evenings trying to understand how the corporate-owned-fleet economics work in rural areas (and in urban). I don't think it works today. But I do think that when costs come down, and they will come down if regulation doesn't kill self-driving cars broadly, or if Elon's right and you can do it with "cameras only," then it will only be a matter of time before the tech is adapted to crappy rural roads.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#556

Post by vineyardmike » Sun, Sep 01, 2024, 4:59 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #516

vineyardmike wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this plays out where it becomes a luxury to drive oneself. Over the next 10-15 years it looks like self driving will continue to advance and will likely become safer than the alternative. I think this is a long way away and will vary geographically. For a long time, self driving cars will be more expensive because they’ll have expensive sensors on it. Not many people will want a $100K self driving car inste…

> Not many people will want a $100K self driving car instead of a $30k Camry What you said is true, but does not reflect reality. Today The Model 3 is ~$40k, and once self driving is "solved", there is no reason a ~$40k car won't be capable of it.

Sure, but that’s assuming the technology on a Tesla Model 3 actually is capable of safely self driving. Today, Waymo is the clear winner, and the equipment costs a lot more than a Tesla.

I know Elon/Tesla can be a charged topic, but teslas don’t self drive today. It might be true, but I don’t think we can assume they’re capable with just a software update based on the info we have today.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#557

Post by vineyardmike » Sun, Sep 01, 2024, 5:08 PM UTC

akira2501 wrote: post #501

vineyardmike wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Editing to add, I actually think we'll see a new class of Drivers License, one that allows you to operate semi autonomous vehicles, and one that allows you to operate fully manual vehicles with a higher level of continuous written and on the road testing required to hold it. Which is a reasonable and non discriminatory solution to the problem. I hard disagree. I think it’ll follow a path more like gun ownership (no…

> This urban/rural divide doesn’t make for good licensure policy. Have you spent any time living in rural areas? > People who depend on driving themselves are less “sophisticated” - they won’t want to spend more time getting a license, because they live farther away, they’re less likely to take drivers classes, etc You do realize a lot of these people have class A license already because there are a lot of those jobs…

> You do realize a lot of these people have class A license already

Admittedly, I didn’t know that.

> They also have wildly different politics.

Yes, I’m just assuming self driving will be a topic broken down by politics. Do you disagree?

My core thesis is that rural people won’t want self driving because it’s less compatible with their existing life, and the “saves lives argument is stronger in urban areas. I think, like guns and many other political topics, it’ll be polarizing, and the rural voters will get an outsized influence to fight it. Highways are an important part of the road system. I can’t imagine rural people being locked out nor forced to have two vehicles.

Some people hunt for sustainance, and we protect that right despite being irrelevant for 99.9% of people. Many more people use trucks or heavy equipment on their farm/homestead for work (or pleasure eg off-roading). I assume we’ll end up protecting that the same way.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#558

Post by kayodelycaon » Sun, Sep 01, 2024, 5:11 PM UTC

johnisgood wrote: post #497

zerocrates wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard for getting a search warrant is probable cause, and that includes just probable cause to believe that there is evidence of a crime at the place to be searched. Taking the witness analogy, even an actual person who's a mere witness can be compelled to testify with a subpoena.

No wonder people are not so willing to report a crime or be witnesses. They are getting punished for it.

A lot of places, talking to police is a very bad idea both because of the police and the other people in the neighborhood. You could very easily get shot for doing so.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#559

Post by vineyardmike » Sun, Sep 01, 2024, 5:19 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #488

vineyardmike wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t agree. The problem is suburbs have a lower cost-per-mile for trips than urban areas. It’s way more common to take a taxi in the city than the ‘burbs. Behavior for car ownership and expectations around waiting on rides is different. Self driving taxis are an easy transition in cities. In the suburbs, you need to sell people on expensive vehicles that cost a lot per trip (whether owned or hailed).

> suburbs have a lower cost-per-mile for trips than urban areas. Can you explain why?

Two ways to get these numbers. Consider the total miles driven, divided by cost of the car. Or consider the cost of a taxi if you don’t own a car.

I believe uber says their average cost per mile is roughly $1. So maybe $2 in urban areas. Waymo is $3 they said.

I saw some statistic that said a new car costs $800 a month now. Since we’re talking about selling new manual vs self driving cars, we can ignore people buying used cars or particularly cheap cars.

If you own a car in a city, you might drive to get groceries once a week and you may drive to a furniture store once every few years, and you take a couple trips to the airport every year. Cost city dwellers walk or take transit. Cities are dense, so the grocery store may be 2mi a way, so roughly 200mi a year, and then maybe 200mi a year for everything else. That’s 400mi a year (or 8mi/wk) with a car that statistically costs $800/mo in America - or 200/wk, so it actually costs $25/mi.

In the suburbs, you may drive 20mi round trip to the grocery store. Then 20mi a day round trip to commute, then 5mi a trip to a restaurant… it adds up to a lot more miles total. I googled it and the average American drives 1200mi/mo. That’s $1.5/mi assuming the same average $800/mo cost of a new car.

That means it’s cheaper for an urban dweller to take uber or Waymo instead of buying a new car. It’s almost but not quite cheaper for a suburbanite to take an uber but definitely not a Waymo.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#560

Post by internet101010 » Sun, Sep 01, 2024, 5:24 PM UTC

rblatz wrote: post #540

bamboozled wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won't happen unless tradesmen, engineers, etc can use self-driving cars, which will e awkward when you need to park up onto a curb or something to inspect a downed power line.

That is what .5% of all drivers that need to drive on a curb to inspect a power line? I’m not sure what your point even is here?

Fourth of July, kids sports that take place outside, etc. are all regular occurrences where people need to be able to easily go up onto a curb and park in the grass.