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Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

economist.com

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Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#271

Post by carapace »

csomar wrote: post #236
yunohn wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? This simply never happens. The developed world is constantly putting its nose into everyone else’s business, and through globalization and industrialization, there’s nothing on this world that the Western economy doesn’t touch.

> This simply never happens. China did well after their cultural revolution. Took time but the page has been turned on that episode.

"episode"? You're casually dismissing the Cultural Revolution to argue for non-interference. I don't think you're making the point you hope to make.

Absolutely somebody should have intervened if possible to halt that madness.

Things got so bad that people actually ate human flesh, not because they were starving, but to demonstrate unquestionable loyalty to the party. Students literally ate their teachers.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#272

Post by lazyasciiart »

Jensson wrote: post #270
lazyasciiart wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would probably focus on the government-mandated construction of new cities and control over which citizens go to university and where they can live, and that there is a wide spectrum of control between the USA and central planners managing the graphics in video game production.

> control over which citizens go to university and where they can live I am pretty sure Chinese citizens are allowed to live where they can afford and they are allowed to go to university if they score well enough on the public tests. Just like in Europe. If you are talking about the random arrests that happens in China, that is due to the undemocratic authoritarian regime and corruption, not due to central planning.

No, they aren’t. Look up the hukou residence permit system.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#273

Post by throwaway48476 »

throwaway3521 wrote: post #46
tetris11 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are you suggesting

Bring back colonization for limited amount of time ie 50years. During that time establish government, educational, civil structures and start the economy. Re-educate the society, instill the values of high-trust society. Pull out of the country gradually replacing foreigners with local population. The name 'colonization' might evoke some sentiments, but we can call this some other name.

Colonization was negative ROI. No one would sign up for that.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#274

Post by AndrewKemendo »

hggh wrote: post #105

That's not anarchy, obviously

Thank you.

I assumed the nuance there would be nitpicked (as the thread proves) which is why I didn’t post this but I’m glad you did.

This famine is the expected result of 20 years of post-colonialist civil war, which the article goes on to explain lightly.

The economist is a capitalist magazine, so they of course are going to choose terms which resonate with capitalists.

The majority in this thread look at this situation as a failure of “valid liberal government” rather than the results of capitalist colonialism, which is what it is.

Colonialist resource extraction by Western powers, exemplified by companies like Chevron, exacerbated ethnic and regional tensions in Sudan and Darfur by prioritizing profits over local communities.

Specifically Chevron's involvement in Sudan's oil industry during the 1970s and 80s led to the displacement of populations and the allocation of resources to specific ethnic groups, heightening grievances and competition over land and wealth.

The infrastructure and political systems left by colonial powers were designed to facilitate such extraction, rather than fostering equitable development, creating a legacy of economic disparity and weak governance. This upended centuries of pastoral farming, and created conditions for this massive civil war, as marginalized groups rebelled against a state that was perceived as both complicit in and shaped by foreign exploitation.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#275

Post by throwaway48476 »

grecy wrote: post #22

I am very sad to watch this situation. I spent 3 weeks driving my 4x4 through Sudan in early 2019 [1], just a month before they finally got rid of Al-Bashir, and it was incredible. The people of Sudan were some of the kindest and friendliest I have ever encountered on the planet. When I asked for directions to buy bread and it turned out to be complicated, the following morning locals brought a bag of fresh-baked bre…

I don't think I've heard of a single group that was not described as the 'kindest and friendliest'.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#276

Post by ethbr1 »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #249
jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

Works for natural ecosystems because we accept that mass casualties is "normal" in the natural world; if some species doesn't survive a mass fire/drought/etc, welp, that's nature. When millions of people starve to death, we don't accept that. (lol, well, we do accept it, as history has shown us time and time again, but we tend to not want to do nothing)

Agreed. Parent is ignoring the positive effects of intervention while highlighting the negative.

USAID funds USD$50b / year, and the US funds UNICEF to the tune of USD$1.4b / year.

Which, among other things, supports the polio vaccination campaign being rolled out in Gaza, to prevent a public health catastrophe and possible resurgence of polio in the Middle East.

It's easy to say "Let them eat cake" when one is sitting in the palace and opining about CIA boondoggles.

In the real world, that means people are starving and children are crippled.

We can (and should) strive for better than nasty, brutish, and short lives, regardless of a person's nationality.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#277

Post by Jensson »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #272
Jensson wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> control over which citizens go to university and where they can live I am pretty sure Chinese citizens are allowed to live where they can afford and they are allowed to go to university if they score well enough on the public tests. Just like in Europe. If you are talking about the random arrests that happens in China, that is due to the undemocratic authoritarian regime and corruption, not due to central planning.

No, they aren’t. Look up the hukou residence permit system.

That has already ended, there is no such discrimination any longer, the Hokou now is just a way to track people. Loosening that up is a big contributor to the Chinese miracle.

Edit: Also class based societies are typically not called central planning, it is lack of human rights.

Western nations do similar levels of planning just by deciding how many new houses are allowed to be built, you need a permit for every business to ensure you don't take too much electricity etc, tons of central planning everywhere.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#278

Post by newsclues »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #173
newsclues wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the west keeps allowing the best people from third world countries to immigrate, it’s removing the business, political and social leaders who have the potential to improve their country. Come to the west, get trained and return home and build something better. Doctors and engineers driving a cab in New York is so broken.

Doctors and engineers drive a cab in New York because, for them, it's better than home . It's broken, all right, but what's broken is "home", not the west. (All right, the west is broken too, but in this situation the brokenness of the west is not the primary issue.) And they didn't that they could fix "home", so they left, and for the most part they aren't interested in going back and trying to fix it. They probably…

I understand why they do it, but I also understand it’s short sighted for both nations.

Best to ensure developing nations have their best talent to DEVELOP the nation rather to deprive them of the best people and hinder development and improvement. You take out the best people and what’s left, poverty, corruption and conflict that forces more people to leave and requires more outside aid.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#279

Post by wolfram74 »

JohnMakin wrote: post #267
istinetz wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't want your opinion to be critiqued, you can simply not post.

There’s no critique though - simply tone policing while trying to push another argument entirely. I’m not even making whatever argument is being “critiqued” here. It’s simply bad posting.

but there was a critique, your proposal was "something something let an army fix it" and they provided context "something something various armies caused it."

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#280

Post by tim333 »

bawolff wrote: post #222
JohnMakin wrote: post #172

Still cannot get the images of the Ethiopian famine out of my head - truly horrific stuff. I’ll let people smarter and more powerful than me debate what could/should be done - I’d personally hazard a guess nothing short of military intervention can stop something like this but that has its whole slew of unintended side effects. It seems like there are enough resources in the world to prevent things like this, at leas…

I guess the problem is nobody wants to "own" countries anymore. Probably for good reason, colonization caused a lot of evil. However if you want to make a country do what you want, you can't just blow it up and then expect them to listen to you. Controlling people requires actually controlling them, and that is icky.

While the old prememant ownership thing has gone out of fashion, maybe we could have something like a 20 year lease where the Brits go in again and bring law and order? This kind of thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Egyptian_Sudan
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