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Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

economist.com

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Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#231

Post by Jensson »

crop_rotation wrote: post #226
yorwba wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central planning has an extremely bad record in China, especially when it comes to famine. During the Great Leap forward, the central planners demanded the implementation of new Lysenkoist farming practices that were reportedly a great success and on track to deliver a record harvest. The central planners then dispensed generous daily rations from the granaries, so that everyone could eat their fill, causing farmers…

I have mentioned this elsewhere as well, no kind of planning saves one from bad economic policy. Post Deng China has a very very good record of bringing prosperity (and China still central planning).

> and China still central planning

Every country has some central planning, China doesn't have much more central planning today than your average European country. Or do you believe some CCP central planner decided to put in scantily clad anime girls in games from China?

China today is very capitalist, they lack democracy, not capitalism.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#232

Post by alephnerd »

Eumenes wrote: post #184
alephnerd wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sudan is in a civil war that is being used as a proxy war by Iran, UAE, Egypt, Saudi, Ethiopia, and other regional states is NOT caused by issues with donors

Can't forget Russia and the US/NATO in that group of swell nation-states

Nowhere near as significant of a presence.

There are Russian/Wagner troops present and most likely a USSOF detachment as well, but the actual enablement, training, and impetus is driven by regional states now.

The era of "superpower" is over, and there are multiple proxy wars now like this (Syrian Civil War, Yemeni Civil War, Ethiopian Civil War, Myanmar Civil War, Libyan Civil War, etc)

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#233

Post by Dalewyn »

crop_rotation wrote: post #146
eej71 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You suggestion below is getting downvoted which isn't that surprising given the general tilt of HN. But I think there is a related question that's a bit better to ask. What are the social, political, cultural and intellectual preconditions of a free society? What ideals and values does the culture need to hold before you can have a stable government that in a general way - values liberty for its citizens? While I'd l…

You raise some excellent points. > What are the social, political, cultural and intellectual preconditions of a free society? I think societies don't become free before they get prosperous. Having lived in dirt poor societies and posh societies, individual freedoms culturally seem to have a strong tie to prosperity. When you are so inter dependent for survival on your social network, the concept of freedom or individ…

>I think societies don't become free before they get prosperous.

Put more bluntly: Freedoms don't put food on your table, but killing the bastard next door so you can use his land might. Guess what hungry people will do.

So you are quite right; freedoms only become a concern once the people have most if not all their immediate needs satisfied. People need to enjoy life first before they will start caring about freedoms.

Of course, the vicious cycle is that being poor is expensive. It's not easy to break it and start accumulating societal prosperity.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#234

Post by moth-fuzz »

twixfel wrote: post #141
TacticalCoder wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I think ultimately pink washing Israeli war crimes and colonisation with appeals to open lesbianism on the streets of Tel Aviv is a dead end. The point is in the end that human rights are inalienable and not transactional. You don't get to treat the Sudanese worse because they're crap on gay rights and nor should we give Israelis an easier time because they're better on gay rights. How many gay marriages in Tel Aviv…

This is directed more at the above comment than yours, but, do note that gay marriage is in fact not legal in Israel, nor is inter-faith marriage.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#235

Post by csomar »

JohnMakin wrote: post #172

Still cannot get the images of the Ethiopian famine out of my head - truly horrific stuff. I’ll let people smarter and more powerful than me debate what could/should be done - I’d personally hazard a guess nothing short of military intervention can stop something like this but that has its whole slew of unintended side effects. It seems like there are enough resources in the world to prevent things like this, at leas…

> I’d personally hazard a guess nothing short of military intervention can stop something like this

Please don't guess, then? The famine started because of a military intervention gone south. The reality is that the Sudanese are a victim of circumstance. A war between some Arab rulers over who controls the Sudan.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#236

Post by csomar »

yunohn wrote: post #224
jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

> Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? This simply never happens. The developed world is constantly putting its nose into everyone else’s business, and through globalization and industrialization, there’s nothing on this world that the Western economy doesn’t touch.

> This simply never happens.

China did well after their cultural revolution. Took time but the page has been turned on that episode.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#237

Post by twixfel »

moth-fuzz wrote: post #234
twixfel wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think ultimately pink washing Israeli war crimes and colonisation with appeals to open lesbianism on the streets of Tel Aviv is a dead end. The point is in the end that human rights are inalienable and not transactional. You don't get to treat the Sudanese worse because they're crap on gay rights and nor should we give Israelis an easier time because they're better on gay rights. How many gay marriages in Tel Aviv…

This is directed more at the above comment than yours, but, do note that gay marriage is in fact not legal in Israel, nor is inter-faith marriage.

It did occur to me that gay marriage might not be legal in Israel. But I was aware that Muslims and Jews aren’t allowed to get married there.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#238

Post by VoodooJuJu »

throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

>radical, approaches and ideas?

Like colonialism? Can't get much more radical than that, and some implementations actually worked pretty well to build up some countries, to the point where those countries are now major players in the world, like India. In others, it failed, either due to the brutality of the colonists or the pride of the colonized.

Could just leave these people alone though.

Many of these peoples have deeply-embedded cultural traits that prohibit them from establishing the standard of living that many of us take for granted. These debilitating cultural traits are likely a product of the harsh climates these people reside in, but only in part. Much more effective cultural traits could be introduced to and imposed on them (colonialism), and in exchange they'd receive the opportunity to participate in and contribute to the regional and even global economy, as well as benefit from mitigations against things like famine.

But maybe we should just leave them alone. Tikkun olam is noble indeed, but many peoples are just completely unreceptive to it, and many adherents of this ideal have no business worrying about other people's trash when their own backyards are a mess.

So, maybe just leave these people alone.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#239

Post by Jensson »

NewJazz wrote: post #227
kibwen wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be anarchism as professed by anarchists (which is itself a broad and fractious array of philosophies generally having to do with abolishing involuntary hierarchies, related to classical libertarianism), but it is a form of anarchy, at least as it is popularly understood. Terminology fails here; at this point any serious anarchists need to come to grips with the fact that this sort of "chaotic anarchy" is w…

On the contrary, the article's use of the word is what is pointless. At no point, besides the title, does the article make mention of anarchy or chaos. Rather, the article pretty clearly states that the famine is a result of a civil war between the government and a paramilitary group that was previously given weapons by the government. Liberal politicians (and less commonly journalists) like to latch onto the words a…

Civil wars tend to create anarchy, it is the anarchy that causes the famine wars themselves doesn't inherently do it.

For example the American civil war didn't create anarchy, the states continued to function on both sides so there were no mass starvation events.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#240

Post by EasyMark »

jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151
throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

Because humans feel compassion for their fellow human beings and if we don’t then what’s the point? It doesn’t cost that much to feed a famine to be honest, much less than blowing up the same country when it’s starts hosting a terrorist org that makes you the next great Satan to blow up because you exist?
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