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Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

economist.com

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Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#201

Post by throwaway3521 »

185504a9 wrote: post #190
throwaway3521 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for a context here: I actually live in almost-third-world country. Thankfully no famine and loss of live but extremely dysfunctional state and society and with educational system collapsing - probably no future. My countrymen, we, could not govern ourselves. I wish this country was occupied and someone built better society!

Not even pretending to make a rational reply here, but I've seen a lot of despicable stuff on the internet and this comment may be the one that made me the angriest. I really hope this is some sort of satire because my blood is about to evaporate. Jesus fucking Christ

It's actually not. I had no running water yesterday. Also two days ago as well. I'm sorry my comment made you angry. I hope you're doing well...

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#203

Post by dang »

anovikov wrote: post #110
Dalewyn wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

I realize that many commenters have been egregiously breaking HN's guidelines in this thread, but calling for expulsion of populations is unacceptable. We ban accounts that post such things. No more of this, please.

We've had to warn you many times over the years not to post flamewar comments to HN but this is a degree of shocking I wouldn't have expected from you or any other longstanding HN user.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#204

Post by giantg2 »

throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

Would the other approaches be any better, or just a trade off of evils. Sounds like white savior complex to think we can go in and just fix everything.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#205

Post by mopsi »

bogle wrote: post #106
mglz wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where is the colonialism within Europe? If you see colonialism as a foreign group establishing control over a people and region over a long time, then: * The Roman Empire colonized Europe for hundreds of years * Napoleon colonized most of continental Europe (this one might be debatable) * The British colonized Ireland and Scotland * The Ottomans colonized the Balkans * Muslim Caliphates colonized Spain/Al-Andalus *…

> The British colonized Ireland and Scotland It's the British Isles. Scotland joined England in the United Kingdom. This is just one where you're clearly incorrect. Colonialism developed as a concept describing European colonial empires of the modern era, which spread globally from the 15th century to the mid-20th century. That kills off almost all of your examples. That people in the comments aren't even taking the…

> Colonialism developed as a concept describing European colonial empires of the modern era, which spread globally from the 15th century to the mid-20th century.

The concept was developed from European colonial empires, but it describes more than just them.

The way Muslims invaded Portugal and Spain, established their strongholds, exploited native population and maintained their rule for several centuries until kicked out fits the same mold, as do countless other examples, from Northern Crusades a thousand years ago to Soviet Union's domination of Central and Eastern Europe just a few decades ago.

If you think that European nations do not have a long history of being invaded by foreigners, seeing their land taken away and given to settlers while being made inferior and exploited, then you are very wrong and I encourage you to pick up a history book on any smaller European nation.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#206

Post by willyt »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #189
eej71 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You suggestion below is getting downvoted which isn't that surprising given the general tilt of HN. But I think there is a related question that's a bit better to ask. What are the social, political, cultural and intellectual preconditions of a free society? What ideals and values does the culture need to hold before you can have a stable government that in a general way - values liberty for its citizens? While I'd l…

I am confused. In the past decades free society is not the direction of the governments, things like free speech are regressing a lot in Anglophone countries (UK, Canada, Australia, New Zeeland) and even Germany. Are you talking about free society in terms of classical liberalism or modern governments that look more like China? Because Europe and down under are going in the direction of China, not freedom. So what do…

What do you mean by free speech is regressing in anglophone countries? That seems like a weird opinion to have? Do you have a particular example?

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#207

Post by conorgdaly »

bogle wrote: post #106
mglz wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where is the colonialism within Europe? If you see colonialism as a foreign group establishing control over a people and region over a long time, then: * The Roman Empire colonized Europe for hundreds of years * Napoleon colonized most of continental Europe (this one might be debatable) * The British colonized Ireland and Scotland * The Ottomans colonized the Balkans * Muslim Caliphates colonized Spain/Al-Andalus *…

> The British colonized Ireland and Scotland It's the British Isles. Scotland joined England in the United Kingdom. This is just one where you're clearly incorrect. Colonialism developed as a concept describing European colonial empires of the modern era, which spread globally from the 15th century to the mid-20th century. That kills off almost all of your examples. That people in the comments aren't even taking the…

The British Isles is a geographic term. It includes(&always has) Ireland given that Ireland is a part of the British Isles but has never been part of Great Britain (the land mass).

The United Kingdom you refer to has a fuller name - "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" (past) replaced by "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) (present).

I assume you're familiar enough with history to recognise that Ireland(landmass/people/culture) was a colony of the British (with or without your pedantry)?

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#208

Post by giantg2 »

crop_rotation wrote: post #155
jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

Central planning has a very good record in countries like China/South Korea. Non central social changes are just very very slow.

I'm not sure China is a good example of it working, unless you limit it to the past couple decades and ignore the human rights issues. South Korea may be a decent example, but also has some possible indirect negative effects, given all the protests, urban/rural divide, and social/birthrate issues. Sure they have the whole not starving thing handled, but so do the majority of countries regardless of central planning or not.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#209

Post by logicchains »

crop_rotation wrote: post #155
jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

Central planning has a very good record in countries like China/South Korea. Non central social changes are just very very slow.

>Central planning has a very good record in countries like China

It's got a very terrible track record in China; the government caused tens of millions of its own people to starve to death, and set the economic development back decades. The GDP per capita in Taiwan is more than double that of China currently, but both started at a similar position. If China had had a similar political system to Taiwan, its people's standard of living would be much better.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#210

Post by feedforward »

blackhawkC17 wrote: post #196
feedforward wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're saying is the West wanted (and funded and armed) tough governments that kept a lid on things as opposed to "modern governments built around such ideals as individual rights, rule of law, checks and balances, multiple political parties, free speech, independent court systems, a secular state". People can be on your side or not, but at least you are rooted in the real world and actual history.

Egypt elected the Muslim Brotherhood into power. There's nothing about the Muslim Brotherhood pertaining to "modern governments built around such ideals as individual rights, rule of law, checks and balances, multiple political parties, free speech, independent court systems, a secular state". Better to deal with a secular dictator than an elected religious extremist. Elected Islamists always crap on democracy once t…

> There's nothing about the Muslim Brotherhood pertaining to "modern governments built around such ideals as individual rights, rule of law, checks and balances, multiple political parties..."...Better to deal with a secular dictator

The Muslim Brotherhood has no appreciation for multiple political parties in Egypt. Nor do you, as you are openly supportive of a dictatorship.

You and yyyk both support my point - the West does not support for Egypt what the original poster called "modern governments built around such ideals as individual rights, rule of law, checks and balances, multiple political parties, free speech, independent court systems, a secular state".

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