Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 415 posts

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#151

Post by jksflkjl3jk3 »

throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own?

Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for the destruction of countless traditional cultures and the lives of hundreds of millions worldwide.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#152

Post by mrweasel »

throwaway3521 wrote: post #46
tetris11 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are you suggesting

Bring back colonization for limited amount of time ie 50years. During that time establish government, educational, civil structures and start the economy. Re-educate the society, instill the values of high-trust society. Pull out of the country gradually replacing foreigners with local population. The name 'colonization' might evoke some sentiments, but we can call this some other name.

Wasn't that basically what Ian Smith suggested for Rhodesia? His argument was that the native Africans didn't have the education level or the experience required to run a "civil" society. So the white Rhodesians should do it for a number of years. I believe his target was the late 1980s, after which everyone would have the same rights.

Hard to say if it would have worked, Ian Smiths comments was mostly made after Mugabe took over, so it was never tested if it would work, or if Smith was even sincere in his statements.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#153

Post by crop_rotation »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #124
throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

Ummm, western led economic and technological development efforts have massively lowered poverty rates the last century. See China, India, etc.

China was doing pretty poorly though before they lucked out on good leadership in Deng. But gambling on that luck doesn't work for most countries.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#154

Post by hobs »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #144
carlob wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy export? That has worked so well in Iraq and Afghanistan...

We didn't do what throwaway3521 said, though. We tried to do it "on the cheap", just occupying, not actually transforming the society, and not staying for 50 years. For context: We occupied Japan for, what, 12 years? We technically occupied Germany longer, but practically it was about the same (I think - from memory and not researched). In that time, we transformed them from violent, racially superior, conquer-the-wo…

For context, one of those events started in 1945, and one in 2003.

One started because we won a decisive war against the nation, in the other we invaded the country on a flimsy excuse.

We have entirely different cultures, times, mores, media landscapes, and different series of occupations, modern weaponry, 4th generation warefare (post vietnam) tactics, the list goes on.

Why would "oh we didn't waste enough money occupying a country that we gained little from" be the right choice? How do we magically know that?

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#155

Post by crop_rotation »

jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151
throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

Central planning has a very good record in countries like China/South Korea. Non central social changes are just very very slow.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#156

Post by Dalewyn »

gizmo wrote: post #143
Dalewyn wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Most Americans supported or voted for presidents that bombed innocent people. Does that mean Americans therefore “deserved” 9/11? According to your moral logic any action against American civilians is tragically justified retaliation for their support of warmongering US presidents. It’s surprising how easily people justify bombing others when they would never apply those standards to themselves.

American civvies have a role and blame in everything America does since we vote for our President and Congress, regardless which way anyone votes (or doesn't vote). The price for our freedom and power is responsibility.

So yes: 9/11 was quite deserved in the sense that we poke(d) our dirty noses in other peoples' (Middle East's) business. This is separate from civvies getting caught in the crossfire, which is tragic regardless of blame; there is a reason deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime.

For another example: Germans who ultimately voted for Hitler and the Nazi party and thus played a role in the Holocaust, among many other travesties.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#157

Post by jksflkjl3jk3 »

Aeolun wrote: post #91

> only the third time in the past 20 years Only the third time in the last 20 years? I thought we were firmly past this…

War and conflict and the resulting devastation is part of human nature, as it has been for all of our species' history. Why would you expect that to have changed in the last 20 years?

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#159

Post by distances »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #144
carlob wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy export? That has worked so well in Iraq and Afghanistan...

We didn't do what throwaway3521 said, though. We tried to do it "on the cheap", just occupying, not actually transforming the society, and not staying for 50 years. For context: We occupied Japan for, what, 12 years? We technically occupied Germany longer, but practically it was about the same (I think - from memory and not researched). In that time, we transformed them from violent, racially superior, conquer-the-wo…

I would assume a more important factor was that Germany and Japan were both very organized, successful industrialized societies long before facing their respective downfalls in the wars. Iraq and Afghanistan both had a very, very different starting position and it would be unreasonable to expect a similar outcome.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#160

Post by SSLy »

bogle wrote: post #57
rmbyrro wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single piece of land on Earth has been attacked and colonized at least once. Why have some peoples managed to do well and others so bad? I think there's something more to learn.

[flagged]

> Where is the colonialism within Europe?

Right now in Donbas and Crimea.

Post reply on HN