Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla • Hacker News Board

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#241

Post by rcpt » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 8:59 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #185

lr4444lr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it'd tell them any more than they already know. These drivers tend to have been given citations already. The real money would be in giving civilians whose footage leads to a successful prosecution for moving violations a percentage of the fine. NYC already has something like this for people who catch too-long idling trucks and photograph/video record it.

> The real money would be in giving civilians whose footage leads to a successful prosecution for moving violations a percentage of the fine. I don't know where you live, but around me, the police are so disinterested in traffic safety that roads have turned into a Mad Max free-for-all. Red light running, stop sign running, lack of signaling, weaving in and out of lanes, and general belligerence on the road. That and…

California?

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#242

Post by kenjackson » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 9:00 PM UTC

paradox460 wrote: post #168

rbalicki wrote: post #6

Genuine question: What is stopping some small percent of drivers from installing cameras and using ML to identify cars driving dangerously (e.g. speeding, running reds, changing multiple lanes at once, etc.), and when their license plate is identifiable, finding and informing their insurance company? If even a small subset of users did this, and insurers did something with this information, it would substantially dis…

Back when I used to cross the San Mateo bridge frequently, I'd see the same group of drivers routinely driving dangerously and breaking multiple laws. I had dashcam footage. I once called up CHP and asked if they wanted it. They politely told me where to shove it The police don't want to enforce the laws that are written. They don't even pull over drivers without license plates.

Problem is there is no punishment to the criminals. Why risk your life/job just to have the criminal released hours later.

I was a big believer of police reform, but realized the whole system was broken and police are just a symptom. And most actors are actually behaving somewhat rationally.

The sad part is criminals are finally realizing this. I have a cousin who hangs with a “crowd” and it’s amazing how prolific and bold some are. And how many people know about the crimes and no one really says anything. And apparently police know about a lot of it too, but apparently a case that prosecutors will take is an exceptionally high bar.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#243

Post by AtlasBarfed » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 9:00 PM UTC

loteck wrote: post #130

aftbit wrote: post #122

Creepy stuff. Maybe we ought not to constantly record everything happening around us all the time.

The incidental and systemic benefits of the recordings are exciting to people and celebrated with stories. The hazards of this constant "pollution" of data — how it is slowly changing our society, our economy, our humanity — is harder to quantify or build opposition to. It's a bit like climate change. Slow, invisible poison.

Law simply needs to internalize encryption. Your cameras are your property and only with consent of owner are they available to authorities.

Public cameras should only be decrypted for evidence to support litigation of crimes, not for police to search for violay, because the current gigantic book of laws has an implicit assumption of a difficulty to enforce.

If suddenly police could use AI to fully prosecute all violations of law then we have all the laws necessary for worse than totalitarian existence.

Every mile you drove in a car will be 10 violations of law. Laugh loud? Violation disturbance of peace. Stand looking at your email too long? Loitering. Cross a park? Dozens of environmental violations.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#244

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 9:01 PM UTC

raincom wrote: post #233

pbohun wrote: post #36

We've seen this type of thing happen with Ring, where the police want video from people's private cameras. Do police have the legal right to access/take people's private property like this? I thought the 4th amendment of the constitution protected against unreasonable searches and seizures?

Third-party doctrine is a legal way around the 4A: "The third-party doctrine is a United States legal doctrine that holds that people who voluntarily give information to third parties—such as banks, phone companies, internet service providers (ISPs), and e-mail servers—have "no reasonable expectation of privacy" in that information. A lack of privacy protection allows the United States government to obtain informatio…

[deleted]

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#245

Post by cxvrfr » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 9:01 PM UTC

pdar4123 wrote: post #231

I have perhaps unpopular additional suggestion. If you break any traffic laws your tesla should automatically report u to the police. Shouldn’t a car w AI capabilities be committed to responsible, ethical, safe, law abiding behavior ? I’m tired of bay area Teslas not signaling, cutting me off, and near killing me while I’m walking or on my bike.

[dead]

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#246

Post by simon_acca » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 9:01 PM UTC

pdar4123 wrote: post #231

I have perhaps unpopular additional suggestion. If you break any traffic laws your tesla should automatically report u to the police. Shouldn’t a car w AI capabilities be committed to responsible, ethical, safe, law abiding behavior ? I’m tired of bay area Teslas not signaling, cutting me off, and near killing me while I’m walking or on my bike.

They have this on airliners now https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_operations_quality_as...

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#247

Post by harmmonica » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 9:04 PM UTC

As a somewhat regular user of Waymo, these types of conversations seem like they're going to be more and more in the (sorry!) rearview mirror because we won't own the car nor the cameras that are recording the world as we "drive" around.

That's not to say that we should give up fighting for some level of privacy even when we don't own the cars, but seems more likely that legislation would be passed that forces the vehicle owners/operators (Alphabet in the Waymo case) to blur peoples' faces. Then of course the state (police/gov/etc.) will clamor for a backdoor key that will unlock the blurred faces/bodies if a crime is suspected to have occurred. Speaking of, I wonder if Waymo already does blur people when they capture them through Waymo rides? I can't seem to find mention of it online.

This commentary assumes self-driving cars are here to stay and become the de facto way we drive instead of driving ourselves. Still not sure how their adoption plays out over time because, at least in the US, people will fight against mandates to use self-driving cars because it compromises their freedom (note that the freedom crowd (no judgment) will be saying that, at first, because they will consider it their right to drive themselves, but once the privacy implications are clear there will be full-on (figurative?) wars fought over self-driving). Guessing a politician, in Texas or another red state, will sooner than later enshrine the right-to-drive-oneself into the state constitution.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#248

Post by laweijfmvo » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 9:04 PM UTC

mft_ wrote: post #236

pmichaud wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside the obvious dystopian next steps, I think the main problem with automated traffic law enforcement is that our laws are quite bad in the sense that they rely on enforcement being loose and somewhat subjective to even work at all. The speeds on various roads, the timing of traffic lights, the places one can park and for how long, etc, are not carefully planned or thought out enough to actually work if eve…

I’m struggling to understand your point, or to imagine many examples which support it. I agree that brief minor parking infringements may occasionally make people’s lives more efficient; but I can’t think of any examples where traffic lights and speed limits need to be routinely disregarded?

From what I remember of my CA driver’s license test (had to re-take the written test when I moved to CA), there is no actual speed limit in CA. The speed limit is “whatever conditions deem safe”.

Maybe OP meant something like that?

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#249

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 9:05 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #171

Lammy wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems like if it’s technically possible, it will happen, and we can’t stop technological progress. ‘The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in “advanced” countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread p…

Speak for yourself. My ancestors pre-industrial revolution were half starved tenant farmers making a subsistence living on too small plots of farmland in colonized Ireland, subject to random slaughter when the English changed their plans. Now, our extended family is prosperous in the US, Australia and Ireland. We’re taller, healthier and mostly in professional or skilled trade jobs. The past is often seen through a s…

[deleted]

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#250

Post by xboxnolifes » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 9:06 PM UTC

mft_ wrote: post #236

pmichaud wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting aside the obvious dystopian next steps, I think the main problem with automated traffic law enforcement is that our laws are quite bad in the sense that they rely on enforcement being loose and somewhat subjective to even work at all. The speeds on various roads, the timing of traffic lights, the places one can park and for how long, etc, are not carefully planned or thought out enough to actually work if eve…

I’m struggling to understand your point, or to imagine many examples which support it. I agree that brief minor parking infringements may occasionally make people’s lives more efficient; but I can’t think of any examples where traffic lights and speed limits need to be routinely disregarded?

It's sometimes safer to speed up 5mph over the limit to get through a yellow light, than to slam your brakes with someone behind you. It's frequently safer to speed to match people speeding around you then to match the stated speed limit (usually on freeways).