I don't understand what's in it for the lender in the borrow stage.
The lender gets to write a secured loan with an excellent risk profile and an interest rate that, on average, generates net profit that is at least as good as other lending opportunities. From the lender's perspective this is a relatively straightforward transaction. A lender will lend to just about anyone if the spreadsheet numbers work out.
Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained
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Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
The article clarifies this? > Generally, in exchange for such favorable terms (i.e., interest-only, matures on death), the bank will ask for a share of the collateral’s appreciation (essentially, "stock appreciation rights"), and this obligation will be settled upon the borrower’s death along with the loan. The amount of the bank’s share of the collateral’s appreciation depends on many factors and it is fundamentally…
Ok, so now the costs are the servicing of the loan for 40 years, and paying some percent of the appreciation. Is there any indication that this would be cheaper than just paying the $17M in taxes?
Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained
#33Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained
#34>Let's assume the asset appreciates at an annual rate of 8 percent Quite a lot of value creation going on. Good on them!
Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
The lender gets to write a secured loan with an excellent risk profile and an interest rate that, on average, generates net profit that is at least as good as other lending opportunities. From the lender's perspective this is a relatively straightforward transaction. A lender will lend to just about anyone if the spreadsheet numbers work out.
Is it really that good of a risk profile? Some of these assets they are writing against are pretty volatile. I would not write a low interest loan against TSLA shares or commercial office buildings.
There's only so much you can blow on intangibles. Should there be a major write down in the value of the asset, chances are not bad that there are tangibles to reclaim.
Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained
#36This seems to only be interesting if you have a lot of money tied up in a company and would like to realize some of that money without losing control of the company. Seems like a lot of risk otherwise. One bad year could have the house of cards crumbling.
Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained
#37Is there any indication the ultra rich structure loans like this to avoid taxes? Or is this just a meme that, for the most part, financially illiterate redditors like to throw around?
One famous person who did this was Larry Ellison using Oracle shares. This almost caused a problem for him in the 90s due to the stock dropping in value: https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Inside-look-at-a-billion...
And most ultra-rich that own lots of shares of large publicly-traded corporations own them outright. So this seems suspicious I would say.
I mean I often see news about some CEO or other selling shares, and how this is announced in advance to not be insider trading. I have even seen sometimes the documents submitted to the SEC posted on the net. There are no trusts involved.
Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ok, so now the costs are the servicing of the loan for 40 years, and paying some percent of the appreciation. Is there any indication that this would be cheaper than just paying the $17M in taxes?
I’m unsure how to compare a cost paid after I die to one I pay now. Is that my cost at all? It seems like a philosophical question. I guess it depends on how much you care about your heirs.
The reddit post claims the inheritors get to avoid taxes. If that is false, the reddit post is a lie, nothing philosophical about it. It does not depend on anything.
Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
The article clarifies this? > Generally, in exchange for such favorable terms (i.e., interest-only, matures on death), the bank will ask for a share of the collateral’s appreciation (essentially, "stock appreciation rights"), and this obligation will be settled upon the borrower’s death along with the loan. The amount of the bank’s share of the collateral’s appreciation depends on many factors and it is fundamentally…
Ok, so now the costs are the servicing of the loan for 40 years, and paying some percent of the appreciation. Is there any indication that this would be cheaper than just paying the $17M in taxes?
Using the numbers in the report, the $17M in taxes would be paid after just 10 years, not 40 years, because the asset appreciated from $50M to $108M in 10 years and the buyer wanted liquidity at that point. After 35 years, the FMV of the asset is $740M, and tax liability would be (740 - 50) * 1/(20 + 3.8 + 5) = $198.72M
So, the question is not whether it would be cheaper than paying $17M in taxes, but whether it would be cheaper than paying ~$198M in taxes.
A couple of other things:
1) it's not clear they are taking out a loan against the asset. The report uses line of credit interchangeably with loan. If it's just a line of credit then they are only paying interest on the credit they use not the full loan amount upfront.
2) loan/LOC allow the capital to be liquid while continually having exposure to appreciation. This is valuable in itself because otherwise you have to make a choice between having exposure or remaining liquid. It's challenging to put figures to this aside from the obvious statement that a liquidation event results in a loss of 8% compounded YoY appreciation. This can be partially mitigated by repurchasing cheaper assets at the cost of some of the liquidity.
The report says:
> I’ve seen anywhere from 0.5 percent to 3 percent, even in the current interest rate environment
So, in the scenario where one takes out a loan for $97M at 3% interest after an asset of $50M appreciates for 10 years, if we assume that provides sufficient liquidity for the borrower to not take out subsequent loans during the following decades, then after 25 additional years the borrower would have paid ~$41M in interest. At 0.5% they'd pay ~$6M.
In an alternate scenario, if we assume the borrower takes out a loan for 90% of equity at 10 years, 20 years, and 30 years, then at 35 years they would have paid $127M in interest on a 25 yr loan + 15 yr loan + 5 yr loan at 3%. At a 0.5% interest rate they would have paid just $20M in interest.
All these scenarios are less than the $198M in taxes they'd owe while also giving them 8% exposure.
I do not have figures for how much the bank gets. My assumption is that they would negotiate terms where the interest rate is lower if the bank receives more of the asset or vice-versa. There's no reason for the loan recipient to take the terms if it's bad value for them relative to paying taxes at time of liquidation.
On the whole, I think the report makes sense as a reasonable approach for avoiding excess taxation.
Re: Buy, Borrow, Die – Explained
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mean if you RTFA, and take it at face value, it was posted by a lawyer who has been doing this for 20+ years for hundreds of clients. If it's a fake post, someone put a lot of time into making it convincing? They cite tax law and precedent cases etc.. I have not personally validated any of it myself though.
Why would anyone take anything at face value posted on reddit? So this one random lawyer on reddit has hundreds of clients with a net worth of $300M+? Or, they're LARPing. I wonder which is more likely.
Those are not the only options. That's a pretty bad strawman.