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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#601

Post by tpoacher »

yard2010 wrote: post #447
tpoacher wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those questions where it's hard to answer but it's obvious once you use it. What's the difference between a fiat and a ferrari? What's the difference between CentOS and Linux Mint? What's the difference between a macdonalds and a michelin burger? I have friends and groups on both platforms. On Signal, I'm basically just sending messages (and only unimportant one, like, when are we meeting. Sending medi…

Honest question - is Linux Mint the Ferrari of linix?

It is to me :) (though obviously it depends what kind of user you are and what you're looking for in your OS).

As a 'personal' user (rather than sysadmin), I tried more distributions than I can count before settling on linux mint, both 'beginner friendly' and 'advanced (e.g. Slackware/Gentoo)'. Ever since I've discovered Linux Mint I've not looked at another distribution (except occasionally for 'shits and giggles' in at least a decade. I feel it is very respectful of its userbase and has exactly the right mix of user-friendliness and non-patronisingness that I would expect from an OS project.

Small example from the latest release: ubuntu suddenly decided to only provide its thunderbird package exclusively as a snap, so the mint team assigned a maintainer to preserve a mint-hosted .deb file on their own repo. While ubuntu has been moving to snaps and flatpaks, mint has listened to its user-based and allocated resources to 'undo' stupidities by ubuntu where they occur. And they've been wise enough to maintain a debian-based rolling-release alternative as a contingency.

Having said that, I have been using the XFCE variant exclusively over cinnamon, which I got used to when I had a line-up of severly underpowered laptops for years. So a lot of it is probably also habit by this point.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#602

Post by tpoacher »

zuhsetaqi wrote: post #424
tpoacher wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those questions where it's hard to answer but it's obvious once you use it. What's the difference between a fiat and a ferrari? What's the difference between CentOS and Linux Mint? What's the difference between a macdonalds and a michelin burger? I have friends and groups on both platforms. On Signal, I'm basically just sending messages (and only unimportant one, like, when are we meeting. Sending medi…

> Perhaps that's why I find the whole "Telegram encryption" discussion baffling to be honest. For me, it's just one of Telegram's many extra features you can use. You don't have to use it, but it's there if you want to. Well, as soon as you crate all e2ee chat most features are gone for this chat. It doesn’t even sync on multiple devices. And e2ee is not available for group chats. It’s more like they implemented it t…

Nothing wrong with "encryption? check" if the encryption part works as intended.

None of the typical criticism against Telegram is directed at whether this is the case or not; usually people start by assuming Telegram is something it doesn't claim to be (a super-secure encrypted-exclusive communications app), and then proceed to attack the scarecrow by pointing out that it's not encrypted-exclusive. Whereas Telegram just says it provides the ability to encrypt your chats if you want to, but otherwise it's more of a multiplatform social platform. It specifically does not state that its sole purpose and raison d'etre is that you, either as a private person or as a terrorist or whatnot, should feel safe and secure using this tool at all times and expect to be untraceable.

The point I'm making here is, if a box needed to be checked and they checked it (properly), then people ranting "ermagerd what about all the other checkboxes that you don't need but other system with different priorities and mission statements have" isn't really useful criticism against the project. Let alone suggesting Signal etc as an alternative, which is like suggesting a raspberry pi to someone wanting a macbook experience.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#603

Post by tpoacher »

maqp wrote: post #244
tpoacher wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes. in that if you want it it's there, but nobody's forcing it on you if you just want a burger.

Oh, I must have missed this. Please tell me how to enable secret chats for groups. And my desktop chats. Also I'd like to turn on the setting for defaulting to secret chats whenever I open a new one. Oh? I can't. Sounds like it's not there if I want it, after all. Good thing they didn't force it to me though /s

I mean, if you want secret group chats, you should probably use Signal. I don't see how this is a "Telegram problem", or how this relates to the macdonalds analogy.

Telegram serves one set of goals, Signal serves another. E.g. I would not trust Signal to remember that recipe photo a friend posted from their old phone last year in my group chat, or for the wedding photos they shared in the 'wedding' group to survive when I want to make an album for their on their 10 year anniversary. But I would 100% trust Telegram for this. Specifically because I know Telegram is not an encrypted communications service but a social platform, and that group chats are stored unencrypted on a server. Which is literally what I want. Just because it also happens to separately offer encryption functionality for 1on1 chats doesn't mean it needs the whole security shebang (which necessarily has consequences on other functions that people already use and rely on).

It's like I said "macdonalds does indeed have salads" and you reply "Great I'll go to macdonalds and ask for soylent green OH WAIT THEY DON'T HAVE ANY, HUR HUR HUR". Well, no, it's true, they don't. If you want soylent green go somewhere else. Specifically don't go to macdonalds and have a tantrum.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#605

Post by K7J6H5G4 »

Canada wrote: post #531
K7J6H5G4 wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only difference between "moderation" and "censorship" is whether you like the policy or not.

No, it's definitely not. Moderation means I can run my group how I want, you can run your group how you want, and others can decide if they want to participate in either of our groups or start their own groups. Censorship is when someone else dictates how we can run our respective groups.

I fail to see the difference. I think the term "moderation" has become popular mainly because everyone is aware of the negative connotations of the term "censorship". Re-labelling acts of censorship as "moderation" allows you to frame it as a responsible and morally justified practice. Now you're no longer quelling dissenting voices like a fascist dictator, no, you're merely "protecting the community", "combating misinformation" or whatever they call it these days.

Basically, it's "moderation" when we do it but it's "censorship" when the Chinese communist party does it.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#606

Post by guappa »

maqp wrote: post #587
guappa wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10 seconds of additional trouble, a lifetime of root access to a 3rd party :)

What? You have factual evidence Signal's apt repo is installing rootkits to people's computers? Let's see it.

I have factual evidence once you add it they have root access.

I can't predict the future.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#607

Post by immibis »

wkat4242 wrote: post #164
bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

> If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. Is it technically possible for them to see it: yes Does Telegram let them see it: I don't think so. That seems to be the core issue around Durov being arrested. They probably should implement E2EE for everything. Then they will have a good excuse not to cooperate, because they simply don't have the data.

Either Telegram will let them see it, or Telegram's CEO will go to jail. Telegram's CEO doesn't want to go to jail, so Telegram will let them see it.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#608

Post by icepat »

tpoacher wrote: post #229
icepat wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal? Honest question, I only use Signal rather than Telegram.

This is one of those questions where it's hard to answer but it's obvious once you use it. What's the difference between a fiat and a ferrari? What's the difference between CentOS and Linux Mint? What's the difference between a macdonalds and a michelin burger? I have friends and groups on both platforms. On Signal, I'm basically just sending messages (and only unimportant one, like, when are we meeting. Sending medi…

> Whereas on Telegram, I'm having fun

I guess I fail to see the need for having fun in a messaging app. Signal covers all my major requirements, Telegram, while fun, does not.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#609

Post by maqp »

guappa wrote: post #606
maqp wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? You have factual evidence Signal's apt repo is installing rootkits to people's computers? Let's see it.

I have factual evidence once you add it they have root access. I can't predict the future.

So, you have nothing. Best of luck.
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