Who was the angry guy who was shouting ?
Retiring from the Rust for Linux Project – Wedson Almeida Filho
11–20 of 107 posts
Re: Retiring from the Rust for Linux Project – Wedson Almeida Filho
#12Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why the answers to these questions are not the same as if C code was calling other C code?
That should be obvious ? The concern from those contributors (and we might soon see the same in QEMU) is that these bindings are essentially a weaponization which forces the great majority of contributors to learn Rust or drop out. Essentially a hostile takeover. If I am contributing to the Linux kernel already, I presumably have a decent grasp of C, the central abstractions in the code I am changing, the email-based…
Linus Torvolts fairly recent comment regarding Rust:-
"I was expecting updates to be faster, but part of the problem is that old-time kernel developers are used to C and don't know Rust. They're not exactly excited about having to learn a new language that is, in some respects, very different. So there's been some pushback on Rust."
I do wonder if peoples mindset, especially kernels developers, would have a change of tune if Linus himself goes out of his way to learn Rust.
I doubt he is and, likely, has no interest in learning it, either. He is not in the position where he is forced to for the most part. However, from what I remember, he does review a lot of code and makes the final decision what gets merged into the main branch. I wonder how much use he will be when... perhaps in the next 10 years... the lower-level code he review becomes more and more Rust.
I guess by then -- which I covered a little in my comment on here -- is likely to be retiring by then.
I just think Linus, the guy that would says there is "Nothing better than C!" - could change the culture in the kernel world if he becomes decent at Rust programming. In reality, I think he would get annoyed fighting the borrow checker. Maybe I would be proven wrong.
Re: Retiring from the Rust for Linux Project – Wedson Almeida Filho
#13[flagged]
> A passive-aggressive exit, but not unusual compared to other Rust drama. By Linux kernel drama standards, it was a non-event. You have the video segment in text, it was pretty non-technical. "NO! We don't want to encode what our assumptions are! We don't want to learn Rust. What do you mean write down our assumptions?" https://youtu.be/WiPp9YEBV0Q?t=1529
Holy shit. It seems they are poisoning this effort on purpose. They are arguing against something the person isn't even saying.
Re: Retiring from the Rust for Linux Project – Wedson Almeida Filho
#14Who was the angry guy who was shouting ?
Unless I'm mistaken, LWN suggests it's Ted Ts'o
Re: Retiring from the Rust for Linux Project – Wedson Almeida Filho
#15[flagged]
> A passive-aggressive exit, but not unusual compared to other Rust drama. By Linux kernel drama standards, it was a non-event. You have the video segment in text, it was pretty non-technical. "NO! We don't want to encode what our assumptions are! We don't want to learn Rust. What do you mean write down our assumptions?" https://youtu.be/WiPp9YEBV0Q?t=1529
[flagged]
Re: Retiring from the Rust for Linux Project – Wedson Almeida Filho
#16i encourage everyone to watch the linked video [0]. reminds me of the recent non-technical arguments made in the freebsd thread [1]. git mailing lists have such a greybeard IRC vibe to them. i will, from now on, use "only accepts patches per mail" as a proxy for "not worth suggesting new ideas to" for all projects. it's a stupid proxy. correlation and causation and all that. but it's a very useful one for your sanity…
I did, I'm actually puzzled he referenced this. You have a minority who wants to impose a change, and the concerns outlined in that video by the audience member reflects genuine concerns from many other maintainers and contributors. That this discussion repeats itself can only be taken to be either: 1) Evil C programmers are stodgy and old, and can't/won't get with the program, boo! 2) The Rust minority has, as of ye…
i think we are arguing from different perspectives. my disgust of the video was the tone and hostility displayed by the linux maintainers. even though the presenter made it clear they came to learn and not to tell the C people how wrong their ways are, the linux maintainers kept on pouring.
i understood your argument being a technical one, and not a social one. i have no opinion on this topic from the technical side.
Re: Retiring from the Rust for Linux Project – Wedson Almeida Filho
#17Who was the angry guy who was shouting ?
Unless I'm mistaken, LWN suggests it's Ted Ts'o https://lwn.net/Articles/978738/
Ted's objection is perfectly reasonable, and the way that Linux works and has always worked internally. If an internal (not userspace) API changes then code that uses that API has to be fixed. He also quite reasonably says that it'll take time to understand the trade-offs of encoding constraints into the type system.
Re: Retiring from the Rust for Linux Project – Wedson Almeida Filho
#18The Phoronix forums are always a place of infinite brain rot. Phoronix is valuable, but its forums... No.
Re: Retiring from the Rust for Linux Project – Wedson Almeida Filho
#19[deleted]
Re: Retiring from the Rust for Linux Project – Wedson Almeida Filho
#20I'm out of my depth here, and I don't fully understand. From what I gather, Rust restricts the possible pathways in the problem space to ensure certain assumptions in the API and to manage memory safely. Is the issue that C allows for more freedom in exploring all possible pathways, or is the problem rooted only to cultural or else?