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Kotlin for data analysis

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Re: Kotlin for data analysis

#21

Post by lolinder »

poikroequ wrote: post #14
jillesvangurp wrote: post #12

I do both Kotlin and Python. More Kotlin than Python to be honest. But I'm pragmatic. Python is where all the action is when it comes to data science, llms, and all the rest. So it's the path of the least resistance. And there's a great argument to not challenge that and just do what everybody else does and put your head down and not criticize any of that. Which is why I use it on a few projects. The library ecosyste…

I think both languages have their strengths. I love Kotlin for its functional programming (map, filter, etc) and strong static typing. But Python has some nice features as well, such as list comprehension, the 'yield' keyword, and annotations are super simple to implement.

Are there things that you find easier to express in a list comprehension format than you do with Kotlin's standard library? I've always found comprehensions to be a bit of a workaround to the fact that Python doesn't have great support for anonymous functions, and I've never found a situation where I'm writing Kotlin really wishing I had a comprehension.

Re: Kotlin for data analysis

#22

Post by Larrikin »

Blot2882 wrote: post #15
jillesvangurp wrote: post #12

I do both Kotlin and Python. More Kotlin than Python to be honest. But I'm pragmatic. Python is where all the action is when it comes to data science, llms, and all the rest. So it's the path of the least resistance. And there's a great argument to not challenge that and just do what everybody else does and put your head down and not criticize any of that. Which is why I use it on a few projects. The library ecosyste…

I'm not sure how someone could see Kotlin as more expressive than Python, unless I am misinterpreting what expressive means. Python has a good language features and helpful abstractions like list comprehensions. What makes Kotlin more expressive? I understand it has some functional features but I've never seen anything dramatically flexible.

As someone who uses Kotlin for work and Python for side projects (and loved Python years ago in college), Python's list comprehension feature is one of the things I hate the most about the language now.

As a simple example using only two collection functions I find it much easier to read

  val hundredOrLessEvenSeconds = (1..1000)
      .toList()
      .filter { it
than

  hundred_or_less_even_seconds = [timedelta(seconds=it) for it in range(1, 1001) if it
But there are tons of helper functions in the collections library to express that in a variety of different ways. But not in a gross code golf way, with clearly named functions

Theres just so much built in https://kotlinlang.org/docs/collections-overview.html

Having lambdas built into the language from the start leads to a ton of expressibility I miss when using python

Re: Kotlin for data analysis

#23

Post by Blot2882 »

lolinder wrote: post #19
Blot2882 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how someone could see Kotlin as more expressive than Python, unless I am misinterpreting what expressive means. Python has a good language features and helpful abstractions like list comprehensions. What makes Kotlin more expressive? I understand it has some functional features but I've never seen anything dramatically flexible.

Kotlin's standard library has ruined me for other languages, especially its collections library. The consistency and comprehensiveness of its approach to collections is unmatched in any language I've tried, including all the big name functional languages. It's hard to get across what's so great about the library in writing because it's not just one standard library function, it's how they all interact with each other…

That's interesting. I've heard complaints about Kotlins standard library in comments like this[1]. I understand they may be nitpicks but they seem annoying in practice.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotlin/comments/mh2z5u/comment/gt2n...

Re: Kotlin for data analysis

#24

Post by poikroequ »

lolinder wrote: post #21
poikroequ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both languages have their strengths. I love Kotlin for its functional programming (map, filter, etc) and strong static typing. But Python has some nice features as well, such as list comprehension, the 'yield' keyword, and annotations are super simple to implement.

Are there things that you find easier to express in a list comprehension format than you do with Kotlin's standard library? I've always found comprehensions to be a bit of a workaround to the fact that Python doesn't have great support for anonymous functions, and I've never found a situation where I'm writing Kotlin really wishing I had a comprehension.

A bit of a contrived example, but something like this (two for statements):

[x*y for x in range (10) for y in range(10)]

It's not often, but occasionally there are moments where I'm writing code in Kotlin and wish I could use a list comprehension. I do prefer Kotlin overall, but there's a few things that I think would be "nice to have" from Python. Especially the yield keyword, such a wonderful way to write your own iterators.

Re: Kotlin for data analysis

#25

Post by Larrikin »

poikroequ wrote: post #14
jillesvangurp wrote: post #12

I do both Kotlin and Python. More Kotlin than Python to be honest. But I'm pragmatic. Python is where all the action is when it comes to data science, llms, and all the rest. So it's the path of the least resistance. And there's a great argument to not challenge that and just do what everybody else does and put your head down and not criticize any of that. Which is why I use it on a few projects. The library ecosyste…

I think both languages have their strengths. I love Kotlin for its functional programming (map, filter, etc) and strong static typing. But Python has some nice features as well, such as list comprehension, the 'yield' keyword, and annotations are super simple to implement.

From your other comment, I'm curious what you like about yield and why you think Kotlin is lacking without it.

Re: Kotlin for data analysis

#26

Post by gavmor »

esafak wrote: post #13
jillesvangurp wrote: post #12

I do both Kotlin and Python. More Kotlin than Python to be honest. But I'm pragmatic. Python is where all the action is when it comes to data science, llms, and all the rest. So it's the path of the least resistance. And there's a great argument to not challenge that and just do what everybody else does and put your head down and not criticize any of that. Which is why I use it on a few projects. The library ecosyste…

Kotlin just needs some stubborn people not to use python just because everyone else does, and build up the Kotlin ecosystem. That's how progress is made.

If someone wants to pay me to do this, I have some free time Mondays and Wednesdays.

Re: Kotlin for data analysis

#27

Post by wk_end »

Larrikin wrote: post #22
Blot2882 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how someone could see Kotlin as more expressive than Python, unless I am misinterpreting what expressive means. Python has a good language features and helpful abstractions like list comprehensions. What makes Kotlin more expressive? I understand it has some functional features but I've never seen anything dramatically flexible.

As someone who uses Kotlin for work and Python for side projects (and loved Python years ago in college), Python's list comprehension feature is one of the things I hate the most about the language now. As a simple example using only two collection functions I find it much easier to read val hundredOrLessEvenSeconds = (1..1000) .toList() .filter { it than hundred_or_less_even_seconds = [timedelta(seconds=it) for it i…

Not that I especially want to defend Python, but can you elaborate a bit on why you find that chain easier to read? The Python version is straightforward enough - if it's just the absence of newlines you can write

  hundred_or_less_even_seconds = [
    timedelta(seconds=it)
    for it in range(1, 1001)
    if it
Also, I don't know Kotlin well enough, but is what you wrote going to be efficient? The Python version iterates once and creates one list (and you can actually turn it into a generator and make zero lists just by swapping the square brackets for parens); to my untrained eye, it looks like the Kotlin version is going to do more iteration and make four separate lists, three of which are just garbage to be thrown away immediately. Here that probably doesn't matter, but in other cases it might be a big problem; is there an easy/idiomatic way to avoid that?

Re: Kotlin for data analysis

#28

Post by esafak »

wk_end wrote: post #27
Larrikin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who uses Kotlin for work and Python for side projects (and loved Python years ago in college), Python's list comprehension feature is one of the things I hate the most about the language now. As a simple example using only two collection functions I find it much easier to read val hundredOrLessEvenSeconds = (1..1000) .toList() .filter { it than hundred_or_less_even_seconds = [timedelta(seconds=it) for it i…

Not that I especially want to defend Python, but can you elaborate a bit on why you find that chain easier to read? The Python version is straightforward enough - if it's just the absence of newlines you can write hundred_or_less_even_seconds = [ timedelta(seconds=it) for it in range(1, 1001) if it Also, I don't know Kotlin well enough, but is what you wrote going to be efficient? The Python version iterates once and…

It's easier to compose functions in Kotlin. The python version you showed is more ad hoc, and is really one list comprehension.

I particularly like Kotlin's scope functions:

https://kotlinlang.org/docs/scope-functions.html

Re: Kotlin for data analysis

#29

Post by lolinder »

poikroequ wrote: post #24
lolinder wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there things that you find easier to express in a list comprehension format than you do with Kotlin's standard library? I've always found comprehensions to be a bit of a workaround to the fact that Python doesn't have great support for anonymous functions, and I've never found a situation where I'm writing Kotlin really wishing I had a comprehension.

A bit of a contrived example, but something like this (two for statements): [x*y for x in range (10) for y in range(10)] It's not often, but occasionally there are moments where I'm writing code in Kotlin and wish I could use a list comprehension. I do prefer Kotlin overall, but there's a few things that I think would be "nice to have" from Python. Especially the yield keyword, such a wonderful way to write your own…

Hmm, I actually prefer Kotlin's version, but maybe that's just because it's what I'm used to:

  (0..10).flatMap { x -> (0..10).map { y -> x * y } }
The flow of the data is more intuitive for me because you don't use variables before they're defined.

> Especially the yield keyword, such a wonderful way to write your own iterators.

Maybe I'm missing something about `yield` in Python—can it do something that Kotlin generators can't?

Re: Kotlin for data analysis

#30

Post by FridgeSeal »

Blot2882 wrote: post #15
jillesvangurp wrote: post #12

I do both Kotlin and Python. More Kotlin than Python to be honest. But I'm pragmatic. Python is where all the action is when it comes to data science, llms, and all the rest. So it's the path of the least resistance. And there's a great argument to not challenge that and just do what everybody else does and put your head down and not criticize any of that. Which is why I use it on a few projects. The library ecosyste…

I'm not sure how someone could see Kotlin as more expressive than Python, unless I am misinterpreting what expressive means. Python has a good language features and helpful abstractions like list comprehensions. What makes Kotlin more expressive? I understand it has some functional features but I've never seen anything dramatically flexible.

Pythons list comprehensions are sort of fun, but occupy that space because the language designers throttled the alternatives pretty hard.

I used to write a lot of Python, I now write a lot of Rust, and the Rust iterator chains feel inordinately more powerful, and list comprehensions feel semantically backwards to me now: what you’re doing, what you’re doing it to, and whether to do it conditionally are all out of order.

To me, Python feels “expressive” because you can “do stuff to make it work” not because of any inherent design that lets you properly express what you’re trying to do.

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