A dishwasher can make or break a restaurant (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: A dishwasher can make or break a restaurant (2017)

#231

Post by viccis » Wed, Aug 28, 2024, 4:48 PM UTC

getpost wrote: post #160

I had a summer job as a dishwasher, which paid minimum wage. I was required to join the union, so after union dues, I was paid less than the minimum wage! Being a union member provided no benefits whatsoever for temporary employees such as myself. This reminds me, the artist Gregory Blackstock retired with a union pension at 55 after 25 years' service as a dishwasher[0]. His art provided another source of income, but…

You joined a union workforce as a temporary employee and were shocked to find that you didn't benefit? Who do you think the union is there to benefit? It is there to protect the people working there for their living wage, and one of the biggest threats to that is replacing them with younger workers more willing to be exploited. A good union is acting in their interests, not yours, so it sounds like it was working as intended! If you had stayed there and worked full time, you would have been in a position to benefit from their negotiations around hours, benefits, and wages.

Re: A dishwasher can make or break a restaurant (2017)

#232

Post by bumby » Wed, Aug 28, 2024, 4:48 PM UTC

atoav wrote: post #142

JoshTriplett wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could establish UBI, and then we wouldn't need a minimum wage. We could decide as a society that we want everyone to have a baseline level of support, rather than doing it indirectly (and less effectively) by forcing the nonexistence of low-paying jobs.

Sure, that would also be a way to address the problem. Quite frankly I haven't read up on the UBI enough to give a qualified answer about it, but given the observation that many places appear to try it out we will probably have very conclusive data soon.

OpenResearch's recent UBI example didn't appear to be a resounding success. While people receiving the higher income appeared to have more interest in starting a business or continuing education, it didn't actually significantly translate to those getting accomplished.

Re: A dishwasher can make or break a restaurant (2017)

#233

Post by Talanes » Wed, Aug 28, 2024, 4:49 PM UTC

infecto wrote: post #63

atoav wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much? Enough to live within 10 miles of the place they are working at sithout having to pinch pennies, while being able to safe something for the future. Sure it isn't a complicated job — but without it the likes of us would not be able to enjoy going to a restaurant. And it is a job that would be both mentally and physically too exhausting for many people. Let's stop doing as if jobs like these are not real jobs…

How did we go from asking what is the proper wage to suggesting its "not a real job"? All jobs are real but some are less valuable than others. There is nothing wrong with being a grocery store stocker your whole life but I am not sure how you set the wage for a 5+ year worker that never moved on/up from stocking shelves. I think its a fairly difficult problem to answer and throwing in classism and white collar vs bl…

That 5+ year grocery store stocker is the lynchpin that allows them to quickly hire teenagers who are only going to work there for a year at most before moving on. Without the institutional knowledge of the long-term workers, the store would have to spend much longer training new employees, or employ a magnitude more supervisors.

Re: A dishwasher can make or break a restaurant (2017)

#234

Post by bumby » Wed, Aug 28, 2024, 4:52 PM UTC

FredPret wrote: post #36

Y-bar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the full time wage can't result in a decent living (housing, food, medical expenses, clothes, feed and clothe a kid or two, and put away a little on the side) then it clearly is too little. Edit: Check out https://livingwage.mit.edu/ for examples based on real-world data.

While I agree with your sentiment, that logic doesn't hold. If the wage for a job is too low to afford life, then we can say either the job is underpaid or the job is fairly compensated but simply not worth doing. If dishwashers quit in numbers for other jobs, dishwasher pay would have to rise if restaurants can afford it, or the restaurant industry would wither, and from an economic point of view, deservedly so. Of…

>wage for a job is too low to afford life

This also simplifies the scenario to assume that wages are the only income. It would be like building a mental model around people who live at home with their parents and concluding whatever money they make is obviously sufficient to 'afford life'. It ignores all the extraneous ways their life is being subsidized by others. Whether or not those external subsidies are desirable or sustainable are intrinsically related to this problem.

Re: A dishwasher can make or break a restaurant (2017)

#235

Post by tossandthrow » Wed, Aug 28, 2024, 4:53 PM UTC

infecto wrote: post #21

tennisflyi wrote: post #6

The "heart," but the only mention of pay is $10/hour, and advancement leads to more long nights as a chef in the volatile restaurant industry? Such respect Edit: also, the lip service of the title "porter" - the electric company will surely except that as payment

Honest question, what should they be paid? Its purely manual labor, there is not much if anything to innovate or be creative. The output is fairly binary, clean or not clean. I am all for fair wages but how do we know if $10 is the right price or too low? Interesting how serious questions get so quickly downvoted. I am genuinely curious how you would price a dishwasher when the output is important but the work itself…

They should be paid enough that the society is roughly equal.

That is definitely not the case when you allow people to work for less than $ 20k a year.

That makes it a democratic problem to pay people so little.

Re: A dishwasher can make or break a restaurant (2017)

#236

Post by nradov » Wed, Aug 28, 2024, 4:53 PM UTC

bumby wrote: post #210

bryanlarsen wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the solution is to throw many of the people who currently make $10/hour out of a job and onto welfare? That's what you're proposing. If we raised the minimum wage to $20/hour, some businesses would raise their wages, and some will fire those workers. And once on welfare it is extremely hard to get off welfare because of claw-backs and because once you have a gap in your resume it's really hard to get a full time $…

I have a slightly different take: if your business is only profitable by the taxpayer subsidizing a relatively large number of employees wages with welfare benefits, you should be capped on how profitable your business is. In other words, you can be as profitable as you want but as soon as your business model relies on taxpayers to be viable, those taxpayers have a say in just how much profit is considered reasonable…

The majority of new restaurants aren't profitable and go bankrupt within a few years.

Re: A dishwasher can make or break a restaurant (2017)

#237

Post by mason55 » Wed, Aug 28, 2024, 4:53 PM UTC

ginknocab wrote: post #229

nehal3m wrote: post #66

I was a dishy for years in a few different restaurants and hotels. It's hard work but if you do your best to help out the kitchen and wait staff wherever you can (picking up ingredients, helping mise en place, fetching dish carts yourself, stocking bar) then you can really make a difference in the day to day. Sometimes I miss the camaraderie. It's an easy industry to get stuck in though, and there's usually a lot of…

I got stuck a long time in restaurants from around 18 years old to right at 30. Finally got out and move to the construction industry. I'm just wondering what exactly Aguilar did in construction that's definitely harder than some high volume fast paced kitchens. Only thing I can come up with is most likely roofing, especially during the summer, because everything else I've been through in construction is easier. "I a…

I wouldn't be surprised if the construction business in Guatemala is a lot harder than in the US. Probably longer hours, no breaks, harder work, few to no worker protections.

Re: A dishwasher can make or break a restaurant (2017)

#238

Post by anon115 » Wed, Aug 28, 2024, 4:54 PM UTC

infecto wrote: post #21

tennisflyi wrote: post #6

The "heart," but the only mention of pay is $10/hour, and advancement leads to more long nights as a chef in the volatile restaurant industry? Such respect Edit: also, the lip service of the title "porter" - the electric company will surely except that as payment

Honest question, what should they be paid? Its purely manual labor, there is not much if anything to innovate or be creative. The output is fairly binary, clean or not clean. I am all for fair wages but how do we know if $10 is the right price or too low? Interesting how serious questions get so quickly downvoted. I am genuinely curious how you would price a dishwasher when the output is important but the work itself…

you sound like an ass right now 'its fairly' binary' have you done the work yourself?

Re: A dishwasher can make or break a restaurant (2017)

#239

Post by bumby » Wed, Aug 28, 2024, 4:55 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #236

bumby wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a slightly different take: if your business is only profitable by the taxpayer subsidizing a relatively large number of employees wages with welfare benefits, you should be capped on how profitable your business is. In other words, you can be as profitable as you want but as soon as your business model relies on taxpayers to be viable, those taxpayers have a say in just how much profit is considered reasonable…

The majority of new restaurants aren't profitable and go bankrupt within a few years.

I don't think that adds much to the conversation. That says nothing of the existing (and profitable) restaurants that exist and still pay people wages that qualify them for taxpayer subsidies. You can easily reword my point to say "your business plan should not rely on paying people a wage that requires them to be subsidized by taxpayers without additional oversight". I also don't think the point needs to be constrained to restaurants.

Re: A dishwasher can make or break a restaurant (2017)

#240

Post by dirtyhippiefree » Wed, Aug 28, 2024, 4:56 PM UTC

talldatethrow wrote: post #209

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Landlords are part of the problem though; due to landlords, property managers, investors, etc, the cost of housing / rent / owning a house has gone up, meaning that a job that would get you a decent apartment 20, 30 years ago is no longer enough. I'll accept that inflation is a fact of modern economies, but rent and the cost of housing has gone up faster than inflation, and income has not kept pace with inflation: th…

If there weren't land lords, where would renters live? Would they build shacks in the forest and fields? Would they build custom homes on lots in the desert? Im not sure if most are capable nor well funded enough. Do we give them houses?

In a perfect world…wait, we’re clearly not in a perfect world…

“Wouldn’t it be nice” is no way to live a life…FWIW…