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Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

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Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#41

Post by robertk »

spolsky wrote: post #18
mechanical_fish wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the costs are roughly $4000 per employee per year. That's maybe 15% of their salary, probably less. You think that top software engineering graduates in New York City make $26k per year? Recalibrate! Recalibrate! I think the number you're looking for is "less than 4%". Remember that the office-construction expenses can be massaged by accountants to reduce taxes on them, and that an employee's (e.g.) $80k salary costs…

By the time we left the old office, it was costing us 2% of revenue. The new office is not full yet and is somewhat more expensive, but I expect that in the long run our real estate costs will be around 4%-6% of revenue, which is the norm for office-based workforces. The specific upgrades we paid cash for will probably end up costing 1% of an employee's salary, averaged out over everything, over the lifetime of the l…

Just curious, how come your profile is written in 3rd person? Is this really Joel Spolsky, or a representative?

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#42

Post by jonknee »

mynameishere wrote: post #35

Having my back to glass would drive me insane, and evidently all of the offices are like that: http://picasaweb.google.com/spolsky/FogCreekSNewOffice#52853... Check out all of the famous series 7 chairs: http://picasaweb.google.com/spolsky/FogCreekSNewOffice#52853... It's got that not-quite-a-prison institutional look to it. That's great if you're running a high school in the poorest district in Mississippi, but give…

> That's great if you're running a high school in the poorest district in Mississippi

That's just an absurd statement. The design is very high-end, perhaps you just don't like the modern look?

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#44

Post by fallentimes »

anthonyrubin wrote: post #38
dcurtis wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do the UI designers have to... wait a minute, there aren't any! If he spent half the amount of money he spent on this amazing office for a kick ass UI team, he would increase sales by an enormous amount for Fogbugz. I know so many people who would switch if it wasn't so damn ugly and difficult to use. I don't think people use Lighthouse because it has better features. Joel's priorities seem very odd to me.

Joel seems to be doing extraordinarily well without your advice.

Dustin never said he wasn't doing well, he just said he'd be doing better if the UI was upgraded.

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#45

Post by fallentimes »

MrRage wrote: post #34
dcurtis wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do the UI designers have to... wait a minute, there aren't any! If he spent half the amount of money he spent on this amazing office for a kick ass UI team, he would increase sales by an enormous amount for Fogbugz. I know so many people who would switch if it wasn't so damn ugly and difficult to use. I don't think people use Lighthouse because it has better features. Joel's priorities seem very odd to me.

Could you quantify "ugly" and "difficult to use"? I use FogBugz, and while it's not the most beautiful thing I've ever seen, it's far from ugly. But then beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it's said. I don't find it hard to use at all. I just use it for bug tracking and to-do reminder. I don't use any advanced features. What exactly do you find difficult to do?

We used to use Fogbugz then switched to Lighthouse because it was much cleaner, more intuitive and had near seamless Github integration.

It's not that Fogbugz is necessarily difficult, it's that Lighthouse is easier.

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#46

Post by mynameishere »

jonknee wrote: post #42
mynameishere wrote: post #35

Having my back to glass would drive me insane, and evidently all of the offices are like that: http://picasaweb.google.com/spolsky/FogCreekSNewOffice#52853... Check out all of the famous series 7 chairs: http://picasaweb.google.com/spolsky/FogCreekSNewOffice#52853... It's got that not-quite-a-prison institutional look to it. That's great if you're running a high school in the poorest district in Mississippi, but give…

> That's great if you're running a high school in the poorest district in Mississippi That's just an absurd statement. The design is very high-end, perhaps you just don't like the modern look?

Maybe it's "high end". But all of these are better:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/doctony/2486595834/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stewiedewie/2377292918/

http://la.eater.com/uploads/2008_02_mcdonalds-thumb.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/meteorry/17414425/

There's a McDonald's down the street from me similarly superior to Joel's lunchroom, which resembles none of the above. It was clearly patterned after a high-school cafeteria.

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#47

Post by timf »

tptacek wrote: post #12
jd wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it has a good ROI via recruiting, etc. Joel mentioned he spent more than a million on improving the interior design. No recruiting is going to make up for that, any time soon#. And in a few years Fog Creek will move to a different location again - at which point they'll have to build a new high end office. So really, this seems to be a case of spending money to improve quality of life. The other benefits, suc…

I agree, but then of course, spending a shit ton of money just to make yourself feel better is one of the luxuries of not being beholden to outside investors. Between ludicrous offices and the 37s "4 days a week" plan, I'd probably go with 37s.

Between ludicrous offices and the 37s "4 days a week" plan, I'd probably go with 37s.

Or I was idly thinking once of a plan where you sprint for 3 weeks (still with weekends off) and then everyone has an entire week off.

Over and over, ~13 weeks of vacation a year.

I wonder if a refreshed, happy, and likely less compensated team like that could keep up with a full time one.

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#48

Post by immad »

robertk wrote: post #41
spolsky wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time we left the old office, it was costing us 2% of revenue. The new office is not full yet and is somewhat more expensive, but I expect that in the long run our real estate costs will be around 4%-6% of revenue, which is the norm for office-based workforces. The specific upgrades we paid cash for will probably end up costing 1% of an employee's salary, averaged out over everything, over the lifetime of the l…

Just curious, how come your profile is written in 3rd person? Is this really Joel Spolsky, or a representative?

spolsky gives way too many interesting comments to be just a representative.

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#49

Post by bbither »

This is a seriously awesome office space that any developer looking for the urban lifestyle that NYC offers would be nuts to not want to work at. But Joel, you already have a fantastic reputation and should be able to recruit top talent based on your location, reputation, and because because you employ other smart people. That 500K of your own cash you put into that space depreciates over 39 years. You basically can't write it off until you move! I got stuck with over 200K in our last build-out that I'm still sitting on 3 years later. However if 500K is all you spent in addition to your lease with a standard buildout allowance, you got a great deal.

Like Joel, I bootstrapped a software company to similar size (25 employees). I did a calculation and we spend about 1.4% of our revenue today on 5,000 sqft of office space, but have outgrown it and it's no longer the nice spacious office we started with. 10,000 sqft of space in the best class A space in Western MA will cost about 3% of our 2009 expected revenue, with modest but nice build-out included. Given that this would be our 4th move in 6 years, I tend to be careful about long leases and lease buildouts.

I'd rather invest in paying good salaries, offering the best equipment and a nice (but not extravagant) work environment. Then I can afford to launch new products without being beholden to investors.

I really like the glass walls though...

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