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Is 'No tax on tips' a distraction from the fight to end sub-minimum wages?

theguardian.com

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Re: Is 'No tax on tips' a distraction from the fight to end sub-minimum wages?

#81

Post by iwontberude »

maximinus_thrax wrote: post #49
throw_m239339 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some cultures, people "tip" teachers, police officers, doctors, politicians, judges... you know where I'm going with that... I'm not saying tips should be banned but there certainly is a "cultural aspect" to tipping...

No, they don't. You're trying a false equivalency between a bribe and gratuity. A bribe happens before the service is provided and the service is contingent upon the bribe. Gratuity is post factum, technically based on the quality of the service provided.

Let's be real. You are creating a conflict of interest. If I take "tips" from my customers, my employer would be pissed. The only reason we are considering this to not be corruption is because it's a system foisted on them by management to reduce their costs.

In more egregious instances in food service I saw employees trade goods for tips quid-pro-quo and cut the business entirely out of the transaction.

Re: Is 'No tax on tips' a distraction from the fight to end sub-minimum wages?

#82

Post by teeray »

websap wrote: post #47

We're moving to a world that most restaurants won't have servers taking your food and drinks order. This is already happening in Seattle, multiple spots are now counter style ordering, you order, get a number and someone just comes from the kitchen to deliver the food. Some of them also have a QR code associated with your number which you can scan to order follow up items. Tipping more than 10% for counter style orde…

> We're moving to a world that most restaurants won't have servers taking your food and drinks order. This is already happening in Seattle, multiple spots are now counter style ordering, you order, get a number and someone just comes from the kitchen to deliver the food.

I honestly love this. At my local brewery, you just walk in, take a free table, scan the QR code on the table, order & pay (with apple pay), then your beer and food shows up. When you're done, you get up and leave. Multiple people / weird check-splitting? No problem, each party just scans the code separately.

Re: Is 'No tax on tips' a distraction from the fight to end sub-minimum wages?

#83

Post by II2II »

maximinus_thrax wrote: post #49
throw_m239339 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some cultures, people "tip" teachers, police officers, doctors, politicians, judges... you know where I'm going with that... I'm not saying tips should be banned but there certainly is a "cultural aspect" to tipping...

No, they don't. You're trying a false equivalency between a bribe and gratuity. A bribe happens before the service is provided and the service is contingent upon the bribe. Gratuity is post factum, technically based on the quality of the service provided.

I work for the government and we are not allowed to accept tips. Even if there is a technical difference between a bribe and a gratuity, it is too easy to misconstrue a tip as a bribe (by either or both parties) and it is too easy to frame a bribe as a tip.

Re: Is 'No tax on tips' a distraction from the fight to end sub-minimum wages?

#84

Post by giraffe_lady »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #54

IMO there should be a CoL adjusted minimum livable wage across the country, and it should be illegal to pay a >18 year old less than what it takes to live on. And that should be calculated from the barest minimum living standards[1]. At a certain point it becomes unconscionable for a wealthy society not to provide pure commodities at their lowest cost of delivery to it's poorest. As we do that, tips should be elimina…

Our society is wealthy partially because of this inequality, not in spite of it. The real risk and extreme danger of penury provides a pressure for people to work for the lowest wages possible, keeping the price of the produced goods low for those who can afford them.

Places with more mechanisms to prevent falling into deep poverty and policies to alleviate it have higher wages at the very bottom, and less wealth both in personal net and GDP per capita. But even then it only benefits local workers: they still depend on an immiserated worker underclass somewhere to make their cheap goods.

Capitalism created this problem, and it is a fundamental mechanism in how capitalism creates wealth. It's not within the powers of capitalism to solve it.

Re: Is 'No tax on tips' a distraction from the fight to end sub-minimum wages?

#85

Post by unethical_ban »

whartung wrote: post #59
websap wrote: post #47

We're moving to a world that most restaurants won't have servers taking your food and drinks order. This is already happening in Seattle, multiple spots are now counter style ordering, you order, get a number and someone just comes from the kitchen to deliver the food. Some of them also have a QR code associated with your number which you can scan to order follow up items. Tipping more than 10% for counter style orde…

The local McDonalds, when you walk in, you see 3 large screen order kiosks, and 2, essentially, empty counters. One with a register. And that's it. There's no beverage bar, no condiment bar, there MIGHT be napkins, but I can't recall. You order from the kiosk, which has a cash machine to accept cash, and if its to eat in, grab a table tent and type in the number. Otherwise, you just take the number on the receipt. Ev…

McDonalds kiosks, besides being a harbinger of a future devoid of contact with service workers, is an objectively awful experience.

The menu is gigantic, it upsells constantly, the screen is buggy, and the food delivery folks don't use the numbers half the time.

Re: Is 'No tax on tips' a distraction from the fight to end sub-minimum wages?

#86

Post by theogravity »

maximinus_thrax wrote: post #49
throw_m239339 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some cultures, people "tip" teachers, police officers, doctors, politicians, judges... you know where I'm going with that... I'm not saying tips should be banned but there certainly is a "cultural aspect" to tipping...

No, they don't. You're trying a false equivalency between a bribe and gratuity. A bribe happens before the service is provided and the service is contingent upon the bribe. Gratuity is post factum, technically based on the quality of the service provided.

There are plenty of situations where you pay up front and fill in the tip before service is actually rendered. I've had situations where I tip the standard and get bad service (eg missed side orders).

Re: Is 'No tax on tips' a distraction from the fight to end sub-minimum wages?

#87

Post by andsoitis »

afavour wrote: post #17

IMO it's just bad policy all round without a significantly higher level of detail. For example, how do we classify a tip vs a wage? If we're not very, very specific about it's going to be yet another tax loophole exploited by the rich who will pay each other $1 for work and then 'tip' thousands more. Sure you’re an engineer on staff now but wouldn’t you want to be a freelancer, paid minimum wage and then a healthy “t…

> For example, how do we classify a tip vs a wage?

Tips are well defined by the IRS, including reporting requirements: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...

Re: Is 'No tax on tips' a distraction from the fight to end sub-minimum wages?

#88

Post by giraffe_lady »

_yb2s wrote: post #33
more_corn wrote: post #2

How about no tax on people below the poverty line? When I was young it always killed me to make so little and still pay taxes.

Isn't that essentially already the case in the USA? The standard deduction for a single person is $14,600/year and the federal property level is very close to that at $15,060/year. It's kind-of weird how these levels are set equal nationwide... as there are regions where this is a decent living and one could own a small single family home or condo, an older but reliable car, and eat well on that salary... and places…

Are you being serious no one eats well on $15k/year.

Re: Is 'No tax on tips' a distraction from the fight to end sub-minimum wages?

#89

Post by Matticus_Rex »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #60
nickfromseattle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The easiest seems like who is paying the "tip". If it's your employer, it's taxable compensation. If it's a customer, than it could be a tip. Then there would probably be a bunch of sub-bullet points defining whether a tip is taxable depending on whether you have a direct relationship with the customer tipping you, whether the "tip" is mandatory, or at the discretion of the customer, are you in X roles (e.g. barista)…

Okay, I hire a contractor to remodel the bathroom and I pay $1k and $10k in tips. I am the client.

I think that's all taxable compensation even under the "no tax on tips" policy suggestions.

Re: Is 'No tax on tips' a distraction from the fight to end sub-minimum wages?

#90

Post by unethical_ban »

rangerelf wrote: post #64
maximinus_thrax wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they don't. You're trying a false equivalency between a bribe and gratuity. A bribe happens before the service is provided and the service is contingent upon the bribe. Gratuity is post factum, technically based on the quality of the service provided.

"Tipping" absolutely is a kind of bribe. Let's take police officers in México, for México, for example. One needs to pay bribes to get anything done. On the other hand, they have almost zero job protection, have absolutely crappy salaries, most of the time have to buy their own uniforms, their own gas for the police cars, and so forth. And on top of that, they have to contribute to "upwards bribes", so they can keep…

No. The definition of bribe applies to instances where law or merit are overridden by money or favors.
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