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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#861

Post by ChocolateGod »

tuatoru wrote: post #706
burnte wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because some things like terrorism and child sex abuse are harms to society as a whole, and even private individuals have an obligation to help combat them. Durov has a service where by design it's hard to filter out that kind of activity, and he's effectively (if not explicitly) helping protect that activity.

So is France going to arrest the owners of HP, because their printers can't filter out CSAM?

> So is France going to arrest the owners of HP, because their printers can't filter out CSAM?

A more comparable example, is France going to arrest someone who maintains a printer in an office and knows an employee is printing CSAM but doing nothing about it?

I hope they would, this is the boat Telegram is in.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#862

Post by NikkiA »

int_19h wrote: post #849
NikkiA wrote: post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No because HP printers *do* print tracking marks to allow law enforcement to match a printout to a printer if they find abuse material that's been printed.

I find it amazing that this is used as an example of a good thing. A few decades ago, one of the factoids about USSR was that they required all typewriters to be registered with the state, with a sample page produced for every unit manufactured so that the state could track their use (this last bit is unlikely to be true, but was widely believed). That was supposed to be a case in point on why free societies are bett…

Who said it was a good thing?

I was pointing out that the GP's strawman was really immaterial because HP don't get sued/arrested because they comply with law enforcement (at the expense of user privacy).

Since I know better than to use a printer in the commission of a crime, it doesn't really affect me, but I'm aware that the majority of users consider it a privacy violation.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#863

Post by throwaway48540 »

willsoon wrote: post #855
throwaway48540 wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, Russian citizen being arrested in Russia for breaking Russian laws against privacy and encryption wouldn't be political?

Yes, because Russia is totalitarian. But they have a law against shitposting. OK. But it hurts my feelings.

France isn't totalitarian by having laws against privacy and cryptography?

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#864

Post by 1oooqooq »

KaiserPro wrote: post #301
1oooqooq wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the founder exit letter. whatsapp is definitely not e2e encrypted for all features. You leak basic metadata (who talked to who at what time). You leak 100% of messages with "business account", which are another way to say "e2e you->meta and then meta relays the message e2e to N reciptients handling that business account". Then there's the all the links and images which are sent to e2e you->meta, meta stores the…

> with "business account", which are another way to say "e2e you->meta and then meta relays actually its a nominated end point, and then from there its up to the business. It works out better for meta, because they aren't liable for the content if something goes wrong. (ie a secret is leaked, or PII gets out.) Great for GDPR because as they aren't acting as processor of PII they are less likley to be taken to court.…

never thought about using csam image hash alerts as a measure of platform data leaks (and popularity as i doubt bots will be sharing them). that's very smart.

and show that fb eclipse everyone by a insane margin it's scary!

about your point on business accounts, the documents i reviewed included dialog tree bots managed by meta. not sure if not having that change things... but in that case it was spelled out that meta is the recipient

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#865

Post by namdnay »

whimsicalism wrote: post #430
namdnay wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 years ago watching too much Taliban propaganda would have put you in Guantanamo pretty fast

you earnestly think that is true of an american citizen in 2009?

if they were muslim? without a doubt

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#866

Post by isakkeyten »

smt88 wrote: post #337
outside415 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch his interview with Tucker Carlson and you’ll see. He doesn’t acquiesce to government requests for moderation control, censorship, and sharing private user data so they target him. He refuses to implement backdoors as well. In stark contrast to western social media companies.

> He refuses to implement backdoors as well. We have no way to know this, and (unlike Signal), Telegram doesn't give us best-effort assurances by doing things like open-sourcing its code.

> (unlike Signal)

Well Tucker Carlson also said he used Signal and his messages were leaked by the government so yeah...

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#867

Post by up2isomorphism »

devman0 wrote: post #99

A lot of really terrible takes in this comment section. Telegram didn't have encrypted groups by default, and telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate. Nothing more, nothing less. The comparisons to other providers is off base because either other providers are cooperating more when they possess actionable, unencrypted information and taking s…

” One cannot legally run a hosted, unmoderated content platform in the developed world,”

It is so funny you put a “developed” there, as if this is an advantage compared to developing ones.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#868

Post by up2isomorphism »

devman0 wrote: post #541
xwowsersx wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrible takes notwithstanding, of which there are many, the issue I see with such arguments is that it's always possible to find legal violations that technically justify prosecution or imprisonment. However, the legal system only functions effectively if we trust that those handling the gray areas are motivated by the common good, rather than serving the interests of a select few or protecting an elite minority. Si…

It's important to note that he has only just been arrested, so there will be a case laid out, a defense offered, facts tried, and ultimately a conviction or not. I don't find a lot of sense in speculating about why or why it didn't happen as that will presumably be surfaced during the trial itself. Such events may or may not be followed up on HN as most of time these things turn out to not be wide ranging conspiracie…

“Only been arrested”, Yeah, while stop and frisk are considered violations to human rights?

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#869

Post by HDThoreaun »

commercialnix wrote: post #859
HDThoreaun wrote: post #798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people dont give a shit about security. Telegram is easier to use than signal and has more features because auto encryption makes stuff like public chats difficult.

Exploit their smartphone then email tidbits of their more outstanding Facebook chats, SMS messages, maybe some nudes, and recordings of their phone calls. You will see the "I don't care about security attitude" do a hard 180 real quick.

Sure, but for now they dont care.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#870

Post by norswap »

devman0 wrote: post #99

A lot of really terrible takes in this comment section. Telegram didn't have encrypted groups by default, and telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate. Nothing more, nothing less. The comparisons to other providers is off base because either other providers are cooperating more when they possess actionable, unencrypted information and taking s…

> [...] telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate.

Do we know this for sure? What are the sources?

If that were true — then it surely would be less surprising, and even expected, but I would argue it's still bad: first because encryption would lead to the same result (as you point out) and second because what's illegal is often a matter of perspective: Telegram had content that was illegal in Russia, and didn't collaborate.

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