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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#851

Post by willsoon »

zoogeny wrote: post #825
gizmo686 wrote: post #815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The motivation can come up discovery though. If there is something nefarious, you would expect the defense to bring it up during pre-trial motions (which are public, just not presented to the jury). The defense also has wide lattitude to bring up such issues to the jury (although they are often limited in what they can argue about it). In some cases, selective prosecution is itself a defense; but (as you allude to) t…

The actual cause of the investigation is unlikely to come up during discovery or the trial. This is because of Parallel Construction [1]. Here is the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article to explain: > Parallel construction is a law enforcement process of building a parallel, or separate, evidentiary basis for a criminal investigation in order to limit disclosure as to the origins of an investigation. 1. https://e…

What? It's that a encyclopedic article?

Well, it seems that this happens too in the free world. I thought it was only my shitty hole barely third world puppet state.

We are doomed.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#852

Post by willsoon »

jmb99 wrote: post #728
fsflover wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Telegram have never made any attempt to either implement full E2E or to dissuade their users for using it It's probably true. There are still no e2ee chats on desktop, which includes my smartpon running GNU/Linux.

Does iMessage not count and E2EE (with the caveat of disabling iCloud) to you? It’s available on desktop.

Yeah. Go ahead.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#853

Post by willsoon »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #422
mazambazz wrote: post #29

This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…

Let’s just say I encrypt illegal.content prior to uploading it to Platform A. And share the public key separately via Platform B. Maybe even refer Platform A users to a private forum on Platform B to obtain the keys. Are both platforms now on the wrong side of the law?

This is a big problem. Why are we talking about "cooperation"? What does it mean? A judge doesn't ask you to cooperate, he seizes your servers. Ah, it's not a court. It's the police? The state? It's not a free country, sir.

In principle, the police can tell if a song infringes copyright, or if a message spreads hate (I'm trying to sound American here). Or if a picture is really a "cheese pizza" or just a strange artistic depiction of youth. Not because the police don't know about music or TC/IP, or don't care about art or reading. Everyone knows they care. But because it is a legal problem.

In my country, let's call it a republic, at least it was a long time ago, even the state can own all your bases because you don't pay taxes, the police can only arrest you for six hours while they call the prosecutor to check that the 200 grams of white powder is what it is. They knew. They had already stolen the rest. If the forensics aren't quite sure what you're bringing them, it's the stuff that makes the stuff what the stuff is, you're free to go.

The prosecutor can make a case and send the 100 grams of white powder the same day, claiming that the stuff is the same stuff that other similar stuff is made of. He expresses his strong conviction. The judge then sends an arrest warrant to the police. You've been arrested, you have no money, the judge imposes some restrictions on you: you can't leave the country, you can't contact certain people, you have to go to court every week to sign a book. The investigation is open.

You have access to all the documents. Nothing happens without your approval and control.

This is how it works if SIA (yes, the singer) is not involved. If it is, you will be dead for a week and no one will ever find your body.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#854

Post by willsoon »

alexey-salmin wrote: post #577
devman0 wrote: post #99

A lot of really terrible takes in this comment section. Telegram didn't have encrypted groups by default, and telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate. Nothing more, nothing less. The comparisons to other providers is off base because either other providers are cooperating more when they possess actionable, unencrypted information and taking s…

> One cannot legally run a hosted, unmoderated content platform in the developed world, one will always be required to remove illegal materials and turn over materials in cooperation with law enforcement. Should you remove e.g blasphemy which is illegal in many countries including some of what I assume you call "developed world"?

We need forums in my town. Anyone can set one up in minutes if it has already been done. But even if the site is about engines, you can't be sure that some data is not what it seems. It could be a plot to burn down Parliament, or it could offend people from a peaceful country who humbly want to reconstruct the map of the world back to 100 BC.

You just don't know. And so we do not even have a single local forum.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#855

Post by willsoon »

throwaway48540 wrote: post #823
StrLght wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He holds French citizenship, apparently broke French laws, and got arrested on French soil. How is that a political decision?

So, Russian citizen being arrested in Russia for breaking Russian laws against privacy and encryption wouldn't be political?

Yes, because Russia is totalitarian. But they have a law against shitposting. OK. But it hurts my feelings.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#856

Post by gloosx »

which wrote: post #808
gloosx wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Channels were meant to be public. No-one ever claimed encryption for channels since it is nonsense. You claim that only secret chats are encrypted in telegram, which is straight not true. You can pull up a link to public channel and everyone can preview the posts, that's obvious. You cannot do the same trick with group chats because they are private and encrypted using MTProto

MTProto is pretty much transport layer encryption. After the MTProto decryption occurs, Telegram servers still ultimately receive your unencrypted message encoded as a https://core.telegram.org/method/messages.sendMessage to send it to the recipient and to store it. How do you think it is possible that you can sign in on a new device and get all of your old messages? There's a reason Signal can't do that.

MTProto is not pretty much transport layer encryption, Telegram servers receive messages encrypted with an auth_key which is created during registration directly on the device and never exchanged via network. When you sign in on a new device, you have to communicate the keys with your other devices, and there is also a second-factor user defined recovery password in place, which is not stored or known to the telegram servers. If you loose your permament session you may be locked out of your account and data forever. Everything is documented at the links, audited and verified, and everything is possible - you can just read how it works.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#857

Post by axegon_ »

int_19h wrote: post #847
axegon_ wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that this is not an isolated case on telegram(you said it yourself: "some amount", which implies "limited"). At the same time, you can literally open up the app and with 0 effort find everything they are accusing them of - drugs, terrorist organizations, public decapitations, you name it. They also provide the ability to search for people and groups around you, and I am literally seeing a channel wh…

As far as E2EE, you do not need to trust Telegram since the clients are open source, and third party clients are also available.

If I have to dig through third party clients in order to trust a system, then it's clearly a shit system. Signal > anything else, especially telegram, which can burn in hell for all I care.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#858

Post by commercialnix »

14 wrote: post #754
logicchains wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason you consider all that misinformation is because it's politically sensitive information and every single other social media company and the vast majority of western-aligned media censor it, so the only place you come across such information is in the uncensored Telegram platform, and assume it must be false because all the other media you consume tells you so.

No I do not assume the moon landing was fake because other media outlets won't cover it. I do not think the earth is flat because news outlets won't cover it. The list goes on. I also do not think the covid beliefs I have come from the fact that mainstream news outlets won't cover it. I strongly believe a narrative was painted and information censored and controlled when it did not fit the narrative they wanted. I wa…

Did she also believe the "fine people both sides" thing was a hoax?

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#859

Post by commercialnix »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #798
lfmunoz4 wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why anyone uses Telegram if it there is no proof that it is secure. Their code isn't open source?

Most people dont give a shit about security. Telegram is easier to use than signal and has more features because auto encryption makes stuff like public chats difficult.

Exploit their smartphone then email tidbits of their more outstanding Facebook chats, SMS messages, maybe some nudes, and recordings of their phone calls. You will see the "I don't care about security attitude" do a hard 180 real quick.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#860

Post by commercialnix »

neilv wrote: post #257

I was talking with someone VC-ish, about my frustration with all the endpoint hardware and communication software being hopelessly insecure for various real threat models. But that, even if I somehow managed to pull off a successful superior solution, as a startup or an open source/hardware project, I didn't want to see all the worst criminals flock to my service. Also, I didn't want to be in an adversarial relations…

If you can post another contact other than LinkedIn, maybe Matrix or SimpleX, that'd be great.
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