Live data from Hacker News

Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

joelonsoftware.com

11–20 of 89 posts

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#11

That looks like a pretty impressive office. It sounds like a successful recruiting tool; I would definitely like working in that environment. What other companies put that much attention towards work environment? I know that a lot of popular startups tend to favor communal environments, but seeing actual offices is pretty rare. All of the places I've worked at tend to fall somewhere between decent to hellish cube nig…

How do we resolve "offices with doors that close" with "communal work environment" anyway? Are they just diametrically opposed office philosphies?

Here's the suggestion from Stewart Brand's How Buildings Learn:

The best adaptation I've seen of the open-office idea is a partial retreat from it. People crave acoustic privacy so they can talk on the telephone, but visual privacy is not as important -- they like being able to see what's going on. This has led to a very satisfactory compromise called "cave and commons". Each office worker has a private office, often small, which opens into a generous open area surrounded by many other private offices. The open area has a kitchen, some couches, sometimes tables for sitting around informally, and sometimes a working library, or at least a rack of current periodicals. You can shut the door of your cave and concentrate, or you can leave your door open and keep an eye and ear on who's coming and going in the commons, and whether the meeting or presentation going on there might be worth leaning in on. The feeling is congenial and homey, and it encourages the casual encounters which, research keeps showing, are at the heart of creativity in offices.

I lived in a dorm designed like this for four years of college. I'm not sure I've ever been as productive since. ;)

I would not be surprised to learn that Spolsky has read Brand's book. He's certainly got the idea. Note the emphasis on glass in the Fog Creek offices, providing acoustic privacy but not visual isolation.

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#12
post #9
post #3

seriously nice diggs, cant imagine how much that place costs but they've got the cash and have a great outlook on getting ROI via recruiting and client WOW, certainly offers a differnt perspective to just getting bought. Why not built a super cool company that you love to work at instead?

I doubt it has a good ROI via recruiting, etc. Joel mentioned he spent more than a million on improving the interior design. No recruiting is going to make up for that, any time soon#. And in a few years Fog Creek will move to a different location again - at which point they'll have to build a new high end office. So really, this seems to be a case of spending money to improve quality of life. The other benefits, suc…

I agree, but then of course, spending a shit ton of money just to make yourself feel better is one of the luxuries of not being beholden to outside investors.

Between ludicrous offices and the 37s "4 days a week" plan, I'd probably go with 37s.

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#13
post #9
post #3

seriously nice diggs, cant imagine how much that place costs but they've got the cash and have a great outlook on getting ROI via recruiting and client WOW, certainly offers a differnt perspective to just getting bought. Why not built a super cool company that you love to work at instead?

I doubt it has a good ROI via recruiting, etc. Joel mentioned he spent more than a million on improving the interior design. No recruiting is going to make up for that, any time soon#. And in a few years Fog Creek will move to a different location again - at which point they'll have to build a new high end office. So really, this seems to be a case of spending money to improve quality of life. The other benefits, suc…

the costs are roughly $4000 per employee per year. That's maybe 15% of their salary, probably less.

You think that top software engineering graduates in New York City make $26k per year? Recalibrate! Recalibrate!

I think the number you're looking for is "less than 4%". Remember that the office-construction expenses can be massaged by accountants to reduce taxes on them, and that an employee's (e.g.) $80k salary costs the employer considerably more than $80k, thanks to the employer share of things like Social Security and health insurance. To say nothing of the costs of recruiting a single employee. Note that a headhunter will charge you a cool $30k to recruit an employee with a $100k salary:

http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/basics2.htm

...and who knows what kind of stiff that headhunter is going to try to foist off on you?

The chances that the $4k per employee per year is paying off for Fog Creek are much, much better than you think.

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#17
post #9
post #3

seriously nice diggs, cant imagine how much that place costs but they've got the cash and have a great outlook on getting ROI via recruiting and client WOW, certainly offers a differnt perspective to just getting bought. Why not built a super cool company that you love to work at instead?

I doubt it has a good ROI via recruiting, etc. Joel mentioned he spent more than a million on improving the interior design. No recruiting is going to make up for that, any time soon#. And in a few years Fog Creek will move to a different location again - at which point they'll have to build a new high end office. So really, this seems to be a case of spending money to improve quality of life. The other benefits, suc…

That's like 3-5% of their salary or at least I hope so. Just how little do you think they earn?

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#18
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it has a good ROI via recruiting, etc. Joel mentioned he spent more than a million on improving the interior design. No recruiting is going to make up for that, any time soon#. And in a few years Fog Creek will move to a different location again - at which point they'll have to build a new high end office. So really, this seems to be a case of spending money to improve quality of life. The other benefits, suc…

the costs are roughly $4000 per employee per year. That's maybe 15% of their salary, probably less. You think that top software engineering graduates in New York City make $26k per year? Recalibrate! Recalibrate! I think the number you're looking for is "less than 4%". Remember that the office-construction expenses can be massaged by accountants to reduce taxes on them, and that an employee's (e.g.) $80k salary costs…

By the time we left the old office, it was costing us 2% of revenue. The new office is not full yet and is somewhat more expensive, but I expect that in the long run our real estate costs will be around 4%-6% of revenue, which is the norm for office-based workforces.

The specific upgrades we paid cash for will probably end up costing 1% of an employee's salary, averaged out over everything, over the lifetime of the lease.

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#19
post #10

Better recruiting tool: Make an office that female developers want to work in, the male developers will follow.

I'm not sure recruiting desperate and socially akward dudes who are going to get all creepy weirdo on the female staff is the best recruitment strategy I've ever heard.

Re: Joel on Software: The new Fog Creek Office

#20

That looks like a pretty impressive office. It sounds like a successful recruiting tool; I would definitely like working in that environment. What other companies put that much attention towards work environment? I know that a lot of popular startups tend to favor communal environments, but seeing actual offices is pretty rare. All of the places I've worked at tend to fall somewhere between decent to hellish cube nig…

How do we resolve "offices with doors that close" with "communal work environment" anyway? Are they just diametrically opposed office philosphies?

I will never EVER work in a communal work environment again.

I can only work in a space somewhere between an 'office with a closed door' and a sensory deprivation tank.

Post reply on HN