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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#801

Post by MichaelZuo »

eviks wrote: post #762
hananova wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really isn't a difficult question to answer: You remove the smallest subset of content such that you are allowed to operate in the markets in which you plan to operate/have a business presence in/plan to visit.

That's an imaginary simplicity since there is no such thing: determining a subset requires very high certainty in the rules (to be able to apply them and not run afoul), which doesn't exist in any real legal system

Hence why every company with sizeable operations in multiple jurisdictions has a huge team of lawyers…?

No HN comment is ever going into the same depth as the output of a hundred plus lawyers. But the parent points in the right general direction.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#802

Post by HDThoreaun »

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #89
kelsey98765431 wrote: post #51

> jpost.com > • 5 hours ago > Pavel Durov, Telegram founder, arrested by France following warrant - The Jerusalem Post > The alleged offenses include: terrorism, narcotic supply, fraud, money laundering and receiving stolen goods. For those unaware, all channel on telegram are NOT ENCRYPTED. They are stored in plaintext on telegram servers. All chats that are not 'secret chat' mode (single device to single device) ar…

This is misinformation that Telegram stores chat data in plaintext on their servers. It stores it encrypted with encryption keys split across the globe. Not perfect, but multiple legal jurisdictions would have to be subpoenad for Telegram to read your non-secret chats.

> multiple legal jurisdictions would have to be subpoenad for Telegram to read your non-secret chats.

Or they could just arrest the founder and make him give them the data + keys...

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#803

Post by HDThoreaun »

NayamAmarshe wrote: post #117
mlyle wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is effectively plaintext, in that one entity has all of those secrets for everyone. That's one entity to subpoena. If that entity doesn't comply, governments will get upset and charge your executives with crimes if they get the chance. Different jurisdictions makes it harder to kick down the doors and get the keys, but it doesn't change the fundamental problem. "Nuh-uh, I put all those records in a box in Switze…

> This is effectively plaintext Everything's effectively plaintext then. Plaintext: refers to data that is transmitted or stored unencrypted. None of which Telegram does.

Signal does not have access to the keys for the text. The government can not decrypt your signal chats no matter how much the company might want them to.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#804

Post by floam »

poszlem wrote: post #265
hdbejs wrote: post #158

Many defend Telegram by likening it to a neutral platform, akin to TCP, claiming it merely provides a service without responsibility for the content. However, this comparison fails because TCP is a simple protocol with no ability to control or monitor content, whereas Telegram holds keys for most data and is capable of content moderation. Unlike E2EE platforms like Signal, which cannot comply with requests without br…

FWIW this post is ChatGPT generated at least partially.

FWIW Binoculars on hugging face says it is most likely human-generated.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#806

Post by mindslight »

coliveira wrote: post #550
moqmar wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most jurisdictions yes AFAIK, if those services directly help an illegal activity, and you knew about the illegal activity.

If his was really true for banks there would be a large number of bankers in jail. This number being close to zero, I guess the courts are very lax at charging bankers for crimes.

Banks are a terrible example for this thread's argument. Banking is essentially the end result of what happens when businesses kowtow to the invasive demands of the government, implement ever-more invasive content policing, becoming de facto arms of the bureaucratic state.

A bank will drop you if they even think you might be doing something (demonstrably on paper) illegal. When opening an account, some of the very first questions a bank asks you are "where did you get this money" and "what do you do for work" - proactively making you responsible for committing to some type of story. All of the illegality you're trying to reference is happening under a backdrop of reams of paperwork that make it look like above board activity to compliance departments. Without that paperwork when shit does hit the fan, people working at the bank do tend to go to jail. But with that paperwork it's "nobody's fault" unless they manage to find a few bank employees to pin it on.

Needless to say, this type of prior restraint regime being applied to free-form communication would be an abject catastrophe.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#807

Post by eviks »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #801
eviks wrote: post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an imaginary simplicity since there is no such thing: determining a subset requires very high certainty in the rules (to be able to apply them and not run afoul), which doesn't exist in any real legal system

Hence why every company with sizeable operations in multiple jurisdictions has a huge team of lawyers…? No HN comment is ever going into the same depth as the output of a hundred plus lawyers. But the parent points in the right general direction.

Never heard a joke about 2 lawyers = 3 opinions? That one points in the right general direction, which is the opposite of the parent's one

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#808

Post by which »

gloosx wrote: post #437
XorNot wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://t.me/s/UkraineNow This is a Ukraine channel. You can preview it in a web browser. If Telegram can enable that functionality, then it means they have the complete capability to serve the content of the channel. Same story if they can scroll back an existing channel to new users.

Channels were meant to be public. No-one ever claimed encryption for channels since it is nonsense. You claim that only secret chats are encrypted in telegram, which is straight not true. You can pull up a link to public channel and everyone can preview the posts, that's obvious. You cannot do the same trick with group chats because they are private and encrypted using MTProto

MTProto is pretty much transport layer encryption. After the MTProto decryption occurs, Telegram servers still ultimately receive your unencrypted message encoded as a https://core.telegram.org/method/messages.sendMessage to send it to the recipient and to store it. How do you think it is possible that you can sign in on a new device and get all of your old messages? There's a reason Signal can't do that.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#809

Post by duped »

sterlind wrote: post #705
wildzzz wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government likes funding encrypted communication channels because it helps destabilize the kinds of dictators that eavesdrop on dissidents.

and it's useful for tradecraft. I think NSA uses Tor to some degree, for example.

Tor was invented within the US military and was sponsored by the state department.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#810

Post by personomas »

xwowsersx wrote: post #461
devman0 wrote: post #99

A lot of really terrible takes in this comment section. Telegram didn't have encrypted groups by default, and telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate. Nothing more, nothing less. The comparisons to other providers is off base because either other providers are cooperating more when they possess actionable, unencrypted information and taking s…

Terrible takes notwithstanding, of which there are many, the issue I see with such arguments is that it's always possible to find legal violations that technically justify prosecution or imprisonment. However, the legal system only functions effectively if we trust that those handling the gray areas are motivated by the common good, rather than serving the interests of a select few or protecting an elite minority. Si…

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