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Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

reuters.com

211–220 of 449 posts

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#211

I've dabbled in management a few times in my career. This meant attending manager-only meetings and trainings. I'll never forget one time when a manager in a focus group said something along the lines of, "The tech sector is going through a rough patch, so we can turn the screws on our employees and they'll have to take it because they will have a hard time trying to find a job somewhere else." This is at a company w…

He's right, and I think we're seeing this done across the industry (especially FAANG). However, just because employees "have to take it" doesn't mean that it's better for the company to have employees that actively hate it and are just staying because of a lack of alternatives. Especially in a field where work output and especially quality is hard to measure, and the success of many companies hinged on motivated empl…

The thing is that it’s not that important if it hurts the company long term. If the company is big enough, any of those "managers" have plenty of time to make a great career there for several years if not more.

imo, that’s the issue when company’s ownership gets so diluted that nobody have personal interest anymore in the company’s long term viability.

Heck when your company is owned by private equity, even the company itself becomes a line in some excel spreadsheet. And you’d better not get that conditional formatting turn to red.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

No international conspiracy is needed. It's just a nice little local racket between the banks and the professional sociopaths.

The key is realizing that the system itself creates the result - no conspiracy needed. Everything naturally results as a consequence of the way the entire system is built, as sure as water will run downhill.

That everything isn’t already like this everywhere is because of active work by individuals, companies, and governments to stop and dam the natural flow.

It is entirely frightening once you realize that total enshittification of various industries is being held back by one company or even one CEO/owner. And those times will pass.

Imagine a world without Apple, for example - how would the phone market look if it was only Google (advertising company) and Facebook (advertising company) making phones?

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand. Problem is this kind of thing is a race to the bottom. Because of the silly ways humans work (mostly due to imperfect information), I'd feel obliged and will agree to it, despite not wanting to (concerns I will automatically be perceived as a lesser employee). And then we're all working weekends.

A sufficiently large overtime/weekend bonus will prevent that easily. I've had quite a few conversations both internally and with customers that started with "we need that by monday" and went via "we can do that, but it will cost X extra" to "well, i guess wednesday is fine, too." Mandatory weekend work is an extremely rare occurence here, I can count all occurences in the last five years on one hand and still have f…

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Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand. Problem is this kind of thing is a race to the bottom. Because of the silly ways humans work (mostly due to imperfect information), I'd feel obliged and will agree to it, despite not wanting to (concerns I will automatically be perceived as a lesser employee). And then we're all working weekends.

A sufficiently large overtime/weekend bonus will prevent that easily. I've had quite a few conversations both internally and with customers that started with "we need that by monday" and went via "we can do that, but it will cost X extra" to "well, i guess wednesday is fine, too." Mandatory weekend work is an extremely rare occurence here, I can count all occurences in the last five years on one hand and still have f…

It tends to be an issue with more "vulnerable" workers, ones with less leverage. Shift work, nurses and hospitality. Margins are ample to cover low wages.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weekend work etc. needs to be approved by a person's manager, so weekend-work without approval would in practice not be compensated (it's possible that technically they should compensate it then fire you for insubordination). The hurdles for "exempt" are way higher than in the US. I doubt it is actually done much in practice, although an employee who wants to be left alone on the weekend certainly could. I would also…

> I would also expect that guidance of "don't read your e-mail outside of working hours" would be sufficient to be able to send e-mail to employees at any day or hour I sometimes want to send my employees emails over the weekend as I think of something and don't want to forget. But there are certain employees that I know will immediately act on the email, which I actually don't want. So I end up emailing myself and t…

Does your client not support delaying emails? Gmail has schedule send for example.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't some Indian specific thing. Private equity is destroying US infrastructure to make a quick buck. It's happening in almost every sector of the economy you can imagine. I'm not exaggerating when I say that PE firms are buying up nursing homes, transfering ownership of the land and building off into a separate entity, and have that entity charge the nursing home rent which keeps going up and up. This forces m…

I couldn't breathe reading this. I had no idea it was THIS bad, these private equity firms need to be reined the hell in if not eliminated and legislated against. Make them do something useful to society or tell them to get bent

I am sure you heard of red lobster going bankrupt because of endless shrimp.

Well, that wasnt actually the case but once again private equity.

They forced red lobster to sell off their land/buildings to a PE controlled entity. Which rented it back to them. Also forced them to go to a specific, PE controlled, fish seller.

In fact, they got forced into starting the endless shrimp stuff because that seller had too much shrimp.

And for the privilege to be managed by them, the bought companies get forced to take on the debt that PE took on to buy them in the first place, along with paying an outrageous amount of money every month.

And lets not even get into what they do to elderly homes..

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weekend work etc. needs to be approved by a person's manager, so weekend-work without approval would in practice not be compensated (it's possible that technically they should compensate it then fire you for insubordination). The hurdles for "exempt" are way higher than in the US. I doubt it is actually done much in practice, although an employee who wants to be left alone on the weekend certainly could. I would also…

> I would also expect that guidance of "don't read your e-mail outside of working hours" would be sufficient to be able to send e-mail to employees at any day or hour I sometimes want to send my employees emails over the weekend as I think of something and don't want to forget. But there are certain employees that I know will immediately act on the email, which I actually don't want. So I end up emailing myself and t…

> So I end up emailing myself and then forwarding them the email on Monday morning.

Certain clients (like Apple’s email app) allow you to schedule emails to be automatically sent at a later date.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#218
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the benefit of working on a small team/startup. Whoever smelt it dealt it kind of situation. Basically, at first at least, whoever's application is erroring is getting a call when it breaks. It sounds bad, but it encourages everyone to write more fault tolerant code. Way moreso then a random bigcorp with an on call team.

I used to get called all the time because our in house infrastructure would fall over, and my apps would crash. It didn’t matter how many times I explained my apps couldn’t run without good infra, and that I wasn’t on that team, and that I had no access or authority to do anything… when my apps when down I got called. So actually, I really don’t like your idea.

Pretty sure your parent poster meant a small overall team. As in, the company is small enough that everyone knows who everyone else is and there’s little to no bureaucracy to reach the right person.

Doesn’t seem like your case at all.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#219
At individual contributor level, such schemes may work -- anyways, people are paid by the hour so anything outside hours is already dubbed 'overtime', and companies are bound to care.

At management level (i.e. top management talking either between them or with the management levels just below), where hours don't get counted (in some countries such as France, it's just 'days'), it really boils down to the top management's culture. Workaholic top management = every manager is expected to be workaholic... and Darwin does the rest: soon enough, only workaholics remain.

Re: Australian employees now have the right to ignore work emails, calls after hours

#220

I feel bad for people in this situation, but at the same time I think it's kind of strange to allow yourself to be in this situation. Personally, I maintain a very strict separation between work devices and personal. Work email, slack, and whatever else I need for work lives on my work devices only. Personal email, whatsapp, etc live on my personal devices only. Most of the companies I've worked at add a remote wipe…

I don't think it's always an explicit choice. I joined a company and despite asking many questions to try and avoid weird policies that could affect work-life balance, after joining I discovered they had certain types of code that had to be shipped outside of their client's business hours. Due to timezone differences, that meant extremely early or late hours for me. I like the company but absolutely hate this. Howeve…

> that meant extremely early or late hours for me.

Especially if you had asked deliberate questions to establish work-life-balance and they'd withheld this, I personally wouldn't have just agreed to doing it without discussion of extra remuneration. Despite it clearly being a big deal for you, if you don't provide at least some pushback, it won't even be on their radar as an issue that's causing you pain.

Maybe if it's very occasional, say once a month, it's not too bad to do it. If it's every week, it'll significantly impact your life. If it's every day, or worse several times per week but unpredictable, then your life is being severely disrupted without compensation of that fact.

I remember once, a company ordered us all to work a month of 12-hour days (which itself is a symptom of bad project management, but that's a different discussion). At the meeting when we were told this, lots of people who were worried about losing their jobs just looked unhappy but said nothing. I knew I could find another job easily enough, so I brought up overtime pay. The company really didn't like it - and in fact threatened me later, but there was nothing they could really do, as they weren't in a position to let people go. The manager's reply was that they didn't want to pay overtime because they were worried that people would game it for extra money. I very firmly told them in this meeting (this was still the same meeting) that people didn't actually want to be there any longer than necessary - they wanted to go home to their wives and kids, and fortunately a few of the previously silent people added things like "my wife always complains whenever I have to do overtime". The outcome was that we had another meeting the next day where we were told that the overtime was voluntary and we'd be paid our normal salary. Nobody volunteered. The day after, the offer was increased to 1.5x salary. A couple of people volunteered. Even at the final overtime rate of 2x salary, there were still a few people who said that their personal time with the family was more important than the extra money. The company finally understood that people's time is precious.

In your case, I would simply start a discussion about sharing the responsibility for the out of hours work. Say you can provide detailed instructions, and be available by phone for the first couple of times to provide verbal help if they have any difficulties. At first, they might try to unload it onto someone else who doesn't complain, but you should still push for it to be shared across the wider team, maybe on a rota if it's really essential and with a bonus each time. You might find you have someone who needs the money and volunteers to do extra. And if the managers themselves ever find themselves having to do the process, you can be sure they will hate it, and very quickly find a way of getting the work done at another time in the week instead.

Sometimes, you can rationalise it as part of the nature of the job. My last two jobs have been UK based but working with US teams, but even just working a time-shifted day of 10am-6:30pm still causes me to have to turn down lots of evening events with friends because I simply cannot get there in time for a 7pm start. I really hate this aspect of the job, but in this case I knew the situation coming into it, and my daily rate is high enough that I consider it to be worth it.

> Even if I wanted to, finding a new job is not an easy task and it's exhausting.

I know it's always easy to say, but you don't have to do anything you think is unreasonable. There may be repercussions to that, and I can understand the fear many people have for losing their job, but silently putting up with things that cause you stress or pain just means that the situation never gets addressed.

For most people, I'd suggest the single best thing you can possibly do in your life is to save enough money for a 3-6 month emergency buffer, so if you were to lose your job it's not such a big deal, as long as you can find another job in that timeframe. While this advice is typically given for unexpected layoffs, or dealing with house or car emergencies (all of which are great reasons in their own right), it has the side benefit that you can start to loosen the hold that your job has over your life - you can start to push back on the work-life balance, because the consequences of losing your job are so much less important.

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