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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#761

Post by eviks »

devman0 wrote: post #541
xwowsersx wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrible takes notwithstanding, of which there are many, the issue I see with such arguments is that it's always possible to find legal violations that technically justify prosecution or imprisonment. However, the legal system only functions effectively if we trust that those handling the gray areas are motivated by the common good, rather than serving the interests of a select few or protecting an elite minority. Si…

It's important to note that he has only just been arrested, so there will be a case laid out, a defense offered, facts tried, and ultimately a conviction or not. I don't find a lot of sense in speculating about why or why it didn't happen as that will presumably be surfaced during the trial itself. Such events may or may not be followed up on HN as most of time these things turn out to not be wide ranging conspiracie…

> I don't find a lot of sense in speculating about why or why it didn't happen

Yet you've started your comment with a strong speculation on why

(and it's also a bit naive to presume such things are surfaced during trial)

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#762

Post by eviks »

hananova wrote: post #645
alexey-salmin wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't ask for legal advice, I ask you how do you imagine the "always remove illegal content, easy" part of your plan to work? There's no common definition of what is legal. E.g do you suggest removing content if it's illegal anywhere in the world?

This really isn't a difficult question to answer: You remove the smallest subset of content such that you are allowed to operate in the markets in which you plan to operate/have a business presence in/plan to visit.

That's an imaginary simplicity since there is no such thing: determining a subset requires very high certainty in the rules (to be able to apply them and not run afoul), which doesn't exist in any real legal system

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#763

Post by oytis »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #709
oytis wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TIL. How do they check that the sum you specified is correct though?

Suppose you knit mittens and sell them for cash out of your garage. The IRS expects you to report and pay taxes on the income. How do they check that the sum you specified is correct?

Not sure how it works in the US. In Germany you are supposed to have a cash register or issue an invoice on each purchase, and sometimes (though really rarely given lack of personnel) they can randomly check of your reported numbers make sense together.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#764

Post by eviks »

bitnasty wrote: post #695
outside415 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch his interview with Tucker Carlson and you’ll see. He doesn’t acquiesce to government requests for moderation control, censorship, and sharing private user data so they target him. He refuses to implement backdoors as well. In stark contrast to western social media companies.

Who would watch an interview being held by a crazy person and take it at face value? Anyone with half a brain would avoid watching or listening to Tucker Carlson like the plague.

You can cover your eyes/ears for the crazy part and only open them to the non-crazy person's replies not to get infected

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#765

Post by xorcist »

smt88 wrote: post #337
outside415 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch his interview with Tucker Carlson and you’ll see. He doesn’t acquiesce to government requests for moderation control, censorship, and sharing private user data so they target him. He refuses to implement backdoors as well. In stark contrast to western social media companies.

> He refuses to implement backdoors as well. We have no way to know this, and (unlike Signal), Telegram doesn't give us best-effort assurances by doing things like open-sourcing its code.

We have no real way to check for backdoors in Signal either. Signal is not transparent about what code their servers are running, and you are not allowed to start your own server with a known version. They do not allow for independent distribution of reproducible builds on F-droid, or any other application store that does not identify you. They will take steps to lock out any independent implementations of the client from their servers. That the code for their client is released is good, but not good enough.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#766

Post by xorcist »

Timber-6539 wrote: post #622
foresto wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you bothered to look, you would find that both of the examples given are open-source servers. You might then deduce that you misunderstood the comment to which you replied.

You cannot audit the system/service logs for those servers, neither can you audit the hardware running those servers, nor the internet providers who can snoop on the traffic et al... That's the argument behind "Open source server" in case it wasn't clear.

This might be where the misunderstanding is. This software is indeed server software that anyone can run, and the global network consists of servers run by many independent entities, in many cases with full control of the hardware. One of these entities can be you, and it is completely possible to run from home.

The integrity of your conversation with someone would then depend on both your endpoints, clients, and the respective server.

Just like email, but for chat. There is no single gatekeeper who is allowed to use the network.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#768

Post by FlowingWithGlow »

It's interesting to me how the bots are working overtime downvoting comments and plastering the same lawfare justification against the CEO of Telegram to anyone who disagrees with this arrest.

What ever the laws of an increasingly authoritarian France; Isn't it fascinating to note that Dictatorships like China and Iran and Saudi Arabia at least are content with jailing their citizens that post "illegal" things while putting up a firewall?

Yes, he was a French citizen. So what. Even if French law demands of a digital public square provider to moerate a billion people at the behest of its governmental censors, we shouldn't support France in its decision to arrest its citizen for providing us with a platform that protects privacy and free speech.

We should protest and fight or him.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#769

Post by Ylpertnodi »

tharmas wrote: post #436

Meanwhile Jihadists roam the streets stabbing people in the neck let in by Politicians the West needs people because of Demographics etc. Should those Politicians be held responsible for the actions of people they let in? Equal standards should apply should they not?

>Should those Politicians be held responsible for the actions of people they let in?

What about native-persons, or people born in your magic country ie not 'let in'? Or, are you only talking about brown people?

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#770

Post by xorcist »

coliveira wrote: post #690
forrestthewoods wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 10,000 people out of 10 million are doing illegal things and you know about it or you are going out of your way to turn a blind eye then you’re gonna have a bad time. This really isn’t that complicated.

But how would you know about this illegal activity, if the product can be used by anyone? Only if you were eavesdropping on your users...

Because in this case, you are.

Keep in mind that as soon as you store user accounts you keep user data, which is perhaps a trivial form of eavesdropping, but clearly something law enforcement takes an interest in.

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