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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#751

Post by hnfong »

hananova wrote: post #647
alexey-salmin wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should certainly have a formal process to respond to those countries’ requests Mere responding is evidently not enough, you need to cooperate. > you might consider technical architectures that don’t leave you in direct custody and control of that content in the first place. This rules out the "public channel" feature. Essentially what you say boils down to a global publishing platform being impossible nowadays…

> Mere responding is evidently not enough, you need to cooperate. Only if the request is coming from a country with a lot of power to effect its judgments internationally, or from a country you plan to personally visit. Whether or not you agree with it, ignoring legal requests from the US, China, and the EU (and debatably some other countries), isn't really an option in this day and age.

> or from a country you plan to personally visit

Until you wanted to visit a small country on vacation and forgot you ignored their court order 4 years ago.

Or you visit some random country and didn't check the extradition treaties they have with some other country you thought you'd never visit.

Or maybe new extradition treaties (yay!)

The sad conclusion I'm seeing in this story is: If you make an internet service, it's safer to just block off all the countries except the specific ones you're planning to operate in.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#752

Post by hnfong »

dareal wrote: post #469
mazambazz wrote: post #29

This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…

Because these countries are hypocrites. Because politics, because these guys are from Russia, China. You can so obviously see there's discrimination against companies from those countries. Can you imagine France do this if it's a US company?

That's why startups need to get Silicon Valley VC investment so that the VCs can lobby Washington on their behalf with protection money political donations and avoid this crap.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#753

Post by throwaway48540 »

lxgr wrote: post #401
user_7832 wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One cannot legally run a hosted, unmoderated content platform in the developed world, one will always be required to remove illegal materials and turn over materials in cooperation with law enforcement. Just would like to clarify, Telegram does take down channels/bots in some cases including copyright infringement. The only bots I’ve dealt with were music downloaders so I don’t know much about other kinds of takedo…

They do it whenever the risk of Apple or Google kicking them out of their respective app stores becomes too great. That's presumably the only entities they take content moderation input from.

Can't wait for the Telegram App Store

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#754

Post by 14 »

logicchains wrote: post #468
14 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly my experience as well. I have never actually used telegram as I was early a signal user and never needed it but my ex used it. All she ever used it for was conspiracy garbage she would follow. Anti covid vaccine doctors and groups mainly. The amount of misinformation she tried to show me and every time I would show her how it was fake she still would not believe me. Then she was even scammed out of $1…

The reason you consider all that misinformation is because it's politically sensitive information and every single other social media company and the vast majority of western-aligned media censor it, so the only place you come across such information is in the uncensored Telegram platform, and assume it must be false because all the other media you consume tells you so.

No I do not assume the moon landing was fake because other media outlets won't cover it. I do not think the earth is flat because news outlets won't cover it. The list goes on. I also do not think the covid beliefs I have come from the fact that mainstream news outlets won't cover it. I strongly believe a narrative was painted and information censored and controlled when it did not fit the narrative they wanted. I was first to criticize the Canadian government on how they handled the vaccine rollout and mandates. I did however spend a lot of time doing my own research and listening to any information my ex showed me and also researching those sides to things and formed a well informed opinion. I sought out other opinions and studies. I did my best to follow the science. Not at all what you are implying. In the end my ex was only interested in the opposite which was any narrative that said the vaccine was poisonous, we are being forced to take it because this is a world culling and in the next few years population is about to crash as it has now effected our sperm and dna so we will not be able to have children and the crazy thought kept on coming almost all fueled by telegram chat groups pushing that stuff.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#755

Post by NikkiA »

tuatoru wrote: post #706
burnte wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because some things like terrorism and child sex abuse are harms to society as a whole, and even private individuals have an obligation to help combat them. Durov has a service where by design it's hard to filter out that kind of activity, and he's effectively (if not explicitly) helping protect that activity.

So is France going to arrest the owners of HP, because their printers can't filter out CSAM?

No because HP printers *do* print tracking marks to allow law enforcement to match a printout to a printer if they find abuse material that's been printed.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#756

Post by duckmysick »

zarzavat wrote: post #535
ashconnor wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A sane comment in the slew of conspiracy theories, "service provider" apologists and misdirection of encryption being the issue.

Telegram always elicits bizarre reactions from the public. On one side there’s actual security professionals saying don’t use Telegram because it’s not fully E2E encrypted, and on the other side there’s people who are convinced that it’s secure because Marketing and that there’s this big conspiracy to stop people from using Telegram. The real conspiracy theory is: Telegram have never made any attempt to either implem…

> The real conspiracy theory is: Telegram have never made any attempt to either implement full E2E or to dissuade their users for using it for politically sensitive messages. Why not?

Could be something nefarious or could be because not doing things is easier than doing things. Why bother if the existing conditions are just fine (for Telegram)?

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#757

Post by Jensson »

coliveira wrote: post #690
forrestthewoods wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 10,000 people out of 10 million are doing illegal things and you know about it or you are going out of your way to turn a blind eye then you’re gonna have a bad time. This really isn’t that complicated.

But how would you know about this illegal activity, if the product can be used by anyone? Only if you were eavesdropping on your users...

The government tells you.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#758

Post by fsflover »

jmb99 wrote: post #728
fsflover wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Telegram have never made any attempt to either implement full E2E or to dissuade their users for using it It's probably true. There are still no e2ee chats on desktop, which includes my smartpon running GNU/Linux.

Does iMessage not count and E2EE (with the caveat of disabling iCloud) to you? It’s available on desktop.

I don't trust closed, non-auditable Apple ecosystem. See these:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25074959

https://sneak.berlin/20231005/apple-operating-system-surveil...

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#759

Post by foresto »

4bpp wrote: post #642
foresto wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of these are native apps; not Electron, Java, or what have you: https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/ (Of course, I don't know what qualifies as a major messenger to you.)

They used to have a page wittily named "feature matrix", which made it apparent that only Element was really kept up to date, with other clients missing features ranging from channel search to embedding images. I don't know if this situation has improved and whether the original page still exists somewhere.

Several of them have been reporting improvements over the past couple years in the weekly Matrix development blog, and I know at least one of them has both search and embedded images. You might want to have another look some time.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#760

Post by eviks »

devman0 wrote: post #99

A lot of really terrible takes in this comment section. Telegram didn't have encrypted groups by default, and telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate. Nothing more, nothing less. The comparisons to other providers is off base because either other providers are cooperating more when they possess actionable, unencrypted information and taking s…

> Nothing more, nothing less.

That's a terribly simplistic take.

And no, there are other providers that also cooperated less (not that you have reliable data on that for such a certain claim that you can't compare)

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