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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#391
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360057625692-In... and move on.

That's not how credibility and trust works

Well you hating on a feature you don't have to use doesn't affect my opinion about the well thought out security design around the rest of the application. I have zero sympathy for the distributed Ponzi scheme that is cryptocurrency, but nothing in Signal has gotten worse with the feature.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#392

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

> If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. Is it technically possible for them to see it: yes Does Telegram let them see it: I don't think so. That seems to be the core issue around Durov being arrested. They probably should implement E2EE for everything. Then they will have a good excuse not to cooperate, because they simply don't have the data.

All the encryption stuff is just a red herring to a larger degree. It’s not the technical access to the information that is the issue, it is that people can share and exchange information that the various regimes do not want shared that is the primary issue. They want censorship, i.e., control of thought and speech, arresting the information flow.

They know what is being said and that’s what they want to arrest, that information can be sent and received. And by “they” I mean more than just the French. That was just coincidental and pragmatic.

The French state does not operate that quickly on its own, to get an arrest warrant five minutes after he landed and execute on it immediately. That has other fingerprints all over it in my view.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#393
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, iMessage is very secure...but then all your stuff is backed up on iCloud servers unless you specifically disable it. That includes all your iCloud encryption keys and plaintext messages. Worse, iPhones immediately start backing up to iCloud when set up for a new user - the only way to keep your network passwords and all manner of other stuff from hitting iCloud servers is to set the phone up with no network con…

That is the correct default. Every day users are far more likely to accidentally lose their data than to run into government snooping.

If that is the correct default then why Telegram is blamed for having non-E2E chats by default? Maybe they also care about users who can accidentally lose their conversations. When Apple does it, it is good, but when Telegram or TikTok do the same, it is bad and not secure.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#394
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Metadata is indeed an open issue on Matrix. I believe addressing it is on their to-do list. Many rooms are not encrypted because they are public rooms, where there would be no point in it. Encryption has been the default for quite a while now.

> I believe addressing it is on their to-do list. I doubt that it's very high on that list, as the problem seems a very hard. Very hard as in that do we even know it's possible? "Metadata" includes a lot of stuff, but basically the originator, the destination and the timing of the messages and participants of a room are all quite difficult to hide in a federated system. I do believe there is a plan for getting rid of…

I was referring to the metadata that are typical complaints about Matrix, like usernames and reactions.

> "Metadata" includes a lot of stuff, but basically the originator, the destination and the timing of the messages

Indeed. AFAIK, sender/recipient correlation cannot actually be protected at the software level, because packet switched networking necessarily reveals it. The common way I'm aware of to mitigate this problem is at the network level, by trying to avoid common routes that would allow monitoring many users' traffic from any one place.

Concretely, that might mean having everyone use Tor (which some folks suggest already) or going fully peer-to-peer (which some messengers do already, and Matrix has been experimenting with).

Signal tries to improve the situation with Sealed Sender, but I'm pretty confident that can't protect against the Signal servers being compromised, nor against network monitoring. When trying to think of how it's useful at all, the only thing that comes to mind is that it might strengthen the Signal Foundation's position when a government demands logs. (And if that is why they implemented it, I suppose they must be keeping logs, at least for a short period.)

Related:

https://www.ndss-symposium.org/ndss-paper/improving-signals-...

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#395
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That includes all your iCloud encryption keys and plaintext messages. Are these stored encrypted or in the clear? If the latter, please cite your source.

They are stored encrypted but whether Apple has the key depends on whether you've turned on "Advanced Data Protection" (aka "I don't expect Apple to bail me out when I lose access to all my devices"). The table in this support article details the treatment of various data categories under the two options: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651 The default for many categories is that your keys are in iCloud so Apple c…

And even "advanced" protection is not advanced enough to protect your calendar and contact list from the government (under silly excuse that Apple uses standard protocols for those data).

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#396
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but the server can correlate it to all messages sent by you, and law enforcement can link server logs to your real identity thrpugh your telco.

Those who need to dissociate with a number have anonymous sim cards in abundance. Costs around $2-5 a piece when ordered in bulk. That said, such high-tech operation is just a geeks fantasy about spies. When you cross the line where it becomes reality, you’re either a very big name with a sudden drug/rape history or a subject for waterboarding which is the most effective cryptoanalysis tool invented.

While this is a well-trodden stereotype, and it certainly has merit, not all crimes are Snowden-level crimes against the state. Felonies such as embezzlement, fraud and trafficking are often investigated by exposing the digital trail. Law enforcement most definitely do pull those records with a subpoena. It's often one of the first things done (pull all banking and phone records) and is often a key ingredient in a successful conviction.

Yes, burner sims definitely help evade investigations, but they are harder to get nowadays, depending on jurisdiction. For instance you can't pay cash for a SIM in North America. It has to be a credit card or a bank transfer and that's a form of ID.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, iMessage is very secure...but then all your stuff is backed up on iCloud servers unless you specifically disable it. That includes all your iCloud encryption keys and plaintext messages. Worse, iPhones immediately start backing up to iCloud when set up for a new user - the only way to keep your network passwords and all manner of other stuff from hitting iCloud servers is to set the phone up with no network con…

iCLoud can be disabled by MDM profile installed by Apple Configurator at setup.

Looks like an easy task, even your granny can do it.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#398
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well of course, but this is a feature of Telegram. It's the only messaging app where messages are stored on the cloud. This of course has security implications, but also allows you to have a big number of chats without wasting your device memory like WhatsApp does, or having to delete old conversations, and allows you to access your chats from any device. By the way you can also set a password to log in from another…

This is such a misrepresentation. Telegram could at-will feed the cloud-2FA password to password hashing function like Argon2 to derive a client-side encryption key. Everything could be backed up to the cloud in encrypted state only you can access. Do they do that? No. So it's not as much as trade-off, as it is half-assed security design.

Apple could also use E2E for their cloud backups by default, but they don't (and if you enable E2E, it doesn't apply to contact list and calendar backup anyway). Why do you demand more from Telegram than from Apple or Google?

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#399
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram currently has very intuitive and snappy search, even in very active groups with years of content. That's because the heavy lifting is done by the server. Think that'd still be possible if there was no way for the server to process the data?

PCs and phones been fast enough to have snappy search on text data for years now. Is "grep" not snappy enough for you?

Grep is inefficient search engine, because it needs to scan through whole content (and Telegram uses search indexes). Also, grep cannot deal with words forms and inflections (you type "foot" and you also want to find "feet"). Inflections are not very important in English, but you need to deal with them in other languages where the word can have many forms.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#400
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Try searching 500/1000 sources (maximum number of conversations any free/premium user can be part of), each with potentially millions of messages, and providing the results in under a second.

AFAIK telegram dont have any super-advanced search features neither it instantly return you results for all these years. Also if you search less common terms it's usually take longer than less than second. And if you just run client on device without a lot of this history cached search wouldn't be anywhere as fast as you expect. So I pretty sure there no server-side magic there, but instead very good UX. Also I can t…

> Also I can tell for certain that with right index grepping tons of JSONs can be very effective on any modern devices.

But to run local search you need to download the conversations to device first which might require lot of (expensive) traffic.

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