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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#341

Post by foresto »

kitkat_new wrote: post #130
dtx1 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have the room owner create an AES 256 key, send it to all Party members via 1:1 e2ee, encrypt room messages with that AES key.

this is pretty much what Matrix does, if I understand correctly. Additionally the key is regularly updated to provide some degree of perfect forward secrecy and avoid encrypting for people who left the group chat

> this is pretty much what Matrix does, if I understand correctly.

I think it has senders encrypt messages with each room member's public key, rather than a single shared key. (At least, that's what the behavior I've seen suggests to me.)

Here's the spec, in case you want to comb through it:

https://spec.matrix.org/v1.11/client-server-api/#end-to-end-...

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#343

Post by mandmandam »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #339
mandmandam wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, tech illiterate - or as likely, legally illiterate. It's unreasonable to expect most people to intuit the distinction you describe. However, you don't see wealthy people communicating on insecure devices, because they have people to take care of that stuff.

I'm really not sure what you're referring to. You see lots of wealthy people communicate on insecure devices, and it's quite common for law enforcement to demand and obtain the contents of their communications. "Look at these terrible messages we subpoenaed" is a staple of white collar criminal prosecutions.

* White-collar crimes are estimated to make up only 3% of federal prosecutions.

* White-collar crime prosecutions decreased 53.5% from 2011 to 2021.

* Annual losses from white-collar crimes as of 2021 are anywhere from $426 billion to $1.7 trillion. The wide range here is due to the lack of prosecutions.

* There were 4,180 white-collar prosecutions in 2022.

* It’s estimated that up to 90% of white-collar crimes go unreported.

Etc.

- https://www.zippia.com/advice/white-collar-crime-statistics/

***

Responding by edit due to rate limit:

Guys the connection is clear if you think about it.

High-net-worth individuals use encrypted messaging apps more than the general population, without doubt.

They also have far more resources and abilities to fight a subpoena. It's all distinctively unfair and highly misleading to normal people; for very little real reason and with great potential for abuse.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#344

Post by wruza »

tpoacher wrote: post #229
icepat wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal? Honest question, I only use Signal rather than Telegram.

This is one of those questions where it's hard to answer but it's obvious once you use it. What's the difference between a fiat and a ferrari? What's the difference between CentOS and Linux Mint? What's the difference between a macdonalds and a michelin burger? I have friends and groups on both platforms. On Signal, I'm basically just sending messages (and only unimportant one, like, when are we meeting. Sending medi…

I second the point about the difference. Can’t tell why, but signal and whatsapp feel just awful ui/ux-wise. And that’s not a habit thing, I’ve used whatsapp before telegram (and still it was unideal). Telegram knows UX-fu and how to grow without being the only player on the board.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#345

Post by sam_lowry_ »

maqp wrote: post #234
sundarurfriend wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a single person I know who uses Telegram cares about or thinks of it as e2ee. Whether "techie" or "non-techie" (whatever the definition of that is). People use it because it has a nice interface, was one of the first to have good "sticker" message support (yes, a lot of people care about that kind of stuff), and of course because of the good old network effect. It's only on HN I ever see people set up Telegram as…

You could also ask about whether they think it's private. And if they say yes, ask them what it means. Does it mean only sender and intended recipients can read the message, or is it fine if the service has someone check the content. Would they agree on the notion "it's OK my nudes I send to my SO are up for grabs for anyone who hacks Telegram's servers", or do they think should Telegram plug this gaping hole. Also,…

>And if they say yes, ask them what it means

I just did it to gather anecdotal evidence and the answer was, the founder is in jail to protect their privacy.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#346

Post by hollerith »

mandmandam wrote: post #343
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really not sure what you're referring to. You see lots of wealthy people communicate on insecure devices, and it's quite common for law enforcement to demand and obtain the contents of their communications. "Look at these terrible messages we subpoenaed" is a staple of white collar criminal prosecutions.

* White-collar crimes are estimated to make up only 3% of federal prosecutions. * White-collar crime prosecutions decreased 53.5% from 2011 to 2021. * Annual losses from white-collar crimes as of 2021 are anywhere from $426 billion to $1.7 trillion. The wide range here is due to the lack of prosecutions. * There were 4,180 white-collar prosecutions in 2022. * It’s estimated that up to 90% of white-collar crimes go un…

Most prisoners in the US though are state prisoners (i.e., convicted by a state court) not federal prisoners (by a large margin I think). Lots of people are convicted in a state court for example of showing up at a bank branch with fake id and trying to cash a check. I gather that would be considered a white-collar crime?

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#347

Post by rasz »

worstspotgain wrote: post #169
rvnx wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/russia-unbans-telegram/ and even eventually ended to become a major propaganda tool for the Russian army.

Would you say that it's possible that the answer to the article's question is: - Telegram is not encrypted from Putin's perspective - Telegram is encrypted from everyone else's perspective

Dont forget UAE, they also get full access, Durov couldnt live there if they didnt.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#348

Post by foresto »

ThePowerOfFuet wrote: post #185
fsflover wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Telegram can be forced to give up data That's all you need to know. Matrix and Signal can't be forced in any way.

The admins of Matrix instances sure can be forced to give up data. The metadata is not encrypted, and many rooms are not either.

Metadata is indeed an open issue on Matrix. I believe addressing it is on their to-do list.

Many rooms are not encrypted because they are public rooms, where there would be no point in it. Encryption has been the default for quite a while now.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#349

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

mandmandam wrote: post #343
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really not sure what you're referring to. You see lots of wealthy people communicate on insecure devices, and it's quite common for law enforcement to demand and obtain the contents of their communications. "Look at these terrible messages we subpoenaed" is a staple of white collar criminal prosecutions.

* White-collar crimes are estimated to make up only 3% of federal prosecutions. * White-collar crime prosecutions decreased 53.5% from 2011 to 2021. * Annual losses from white-collar crimes as of 2021 are anywhere from $426 billion to $1.7 trillion. The wide range here is due to the lack of prosecutions. * There were 4,180 white-collar prosecutions in 2022. * It’s estimated that up to 90% of white-collar crimes go un…

I don't understand the connection between these statistics and your claim that wealthy people don't use insecure messaging apps.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#350

Post by rafram »

mandmandam wrote: post #343
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really not sure what you're referring to. You see lots of wealthy people communicate on insecure devices, and it's quite common for law enforcement to demand and obtain the contents of their communications. "Look at these terrible messages we subpoenaed" is a staple of white collar criminal prosecutions.

* White-collar crimes are estimated to make up only 3% of federal prosecutions. * White-collar crime prosecutions decreased 53.5% from 2011 to 2021. * Annual losses from white-collar crimes as of 2021 are anywhere from $426 billion to $1.7 trillion. The wide range here is due to the lack of prosecutions. * There were 4,180 white-collar prosecutions in 2022. * It’s estimated that up to 90% of white-collar crimes go un…

You change the subject in each comment and it’s not clear how any of this relates to Telegram.
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