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Man Arrested for Creating Child Porn Using AI

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Re: Man Arrested for Creating Child Porn Using AI

#101

Post by ToucanLoucan »

Ferret7446 wrote: post #84
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is great but I feel we're also leaving out the "human element" that necessarily is part of these sorts of questions. Ultimately, we, as a people, don't want pedophiles, we don't want children abused, etc. These I feel are not controversial statements. However, allowing AI-generated CASM as a way to placate pedophiles does a few things: Firstly, it normalizes this material, even to the tiniest degree you'…

> Ultimately, we, as a people, don't want pedophiles, we don't want children abused, etc. We could say the same about violence and its presence in media.

I don't think you'd find nearly the unanimous agreement with that statement as mine. I personally love violent media, both the action-oriented John Wick type stuff and shooter games, and also I am an avid fan of gruesome horror too.

Re: Man Arrested for Creating Child Porn Using AI

#102

Post by ndriscoll »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #96
ndriscoll wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, a government that makes victimless actions into major crimes also destroys social cohesion as it means the law is clearly detached from what is just. By all means, fast track the death penalty for child rapists. Even make a constitutional amendment allowing cruel and unusual punishments for that single crime. Treat paying for actual abuse images as a worse crime than commissioning a murder. Sky's t…

Yeah obviously there needs to be a balance. But I think it's popular right now to be unbalanced towards allowing any and all victimless crimes not thinking about the effects they do have on society overall and in the long term vs any particular specific person immediately

Something can be legal while not being socially acceptable, and we can still strictly police related harms. Like with drugs, we can legalize them while still making e.g. smelling up an area with marijuana carry a public nuisance fine, or make littering with needles a misdemeanor (or more severe if someone gets injured).

If someone's only crime is being disturbing, the government doesn't need to get involved, but we can still not want to be around them and especially keep kids away from them.

Re: Man Arrested for Creating Child Porn Using AI

#103

Post by imoverclocked »

sandworm101 wrote: post #66
imoverclocked wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it really child abuse if no children were involved? Does that mean that AI-generated imagery of some protected group being harmed causes actual harm to that protected group? Not saying it doesn't, but it may be worth thinking about. Deepfakes of real children is real children being involved. Outside of that, my response is, “how would you create a compelling CSAM image with nothing resembling the target in the t…

>> how would you create a compelling CSAM image with nothing resembling the target in the training data? (1) You feed it extra training data to suit the desired output. (2) The AI combines bits from existing training data. It has non-pornographic content of children. It has adult pornography. Layer one over the other and voila. Crime. Most AI has zero images of cats doing calculus, but is very capable of generating s…

In theory, without the adult pornography to help seed step 2, how hard would you think it to still accomplish this? ie: what if we somehow target not-training LLMs on any pornographic material or any material with children?

Re: Man Arrested for Creating Child Porn Using AI

#104

Post by aprilthird2021 »

ndriscoll wrote: post #102
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah obviously there needs to be a balance. But I think it's popular right now to be unbalanced towards allowing any and all victimless crimes not thinking about the effects they do have on society overall and in the long term vs any particular specific person immediately

Something can be legal while not being socially acceptable, and we can still strictly police related harms. Like with drugs, we can legalize them while still making e.g. smelling up an area with marijuana carry a public nuisance fine, or make littering with needles a misdemeanor (or more severe if someone gets injured). If someone's only crime is being disturbing, the government doesn't need to get involved, but we c…

I think that's a better balance than what we currently do.

Re: Man Arrested for Creating Child Porn Using AI

#105

Post by thomashop »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #34
throwaway413486 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it really child abuse if no children were involved? I think there is an empirical question one step beyond this. Does a pedophile who sees AI child porn get inured to it and then go on to try to act out fantasies with real victims? Or does this give pedophiles a way to satiate their desires indefinitely with only AI-based content, and lead to a lower portion abusing actual kids? A second order issue is that dist…

This comment is great but I feel we're also leaving out the "human element" that necessarily is part of these sorts of questions. Ultimately, we, as a people, don't want pedophiles, we don't want children abused, etc. These I feel are not controversial statements. However, allowing AI-generated CASM as a way to placate pedophiles does a few things: Firstly, it normalizes this material, even to the tiniest degree you'…

I'd have to look up the data, but the Netherlands has a long history of decriminalizing weed. However, decriminalization did not increase usage in the Dutch population.

Re: Man Arrested for Creating Child Porn Using AI

#106

Post by thomashop »

stackghost wrote: post #83
fear-anger-hate wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way to dismiss a solid argument based on an anecdote. I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that porn has nothing to do with seeking out real life sex, especially given how it has been widely studied that the amount of sex young adults are having has been steadily going down since the end of 90's.

>Way to dismiss a solid argument based on an anecdote. We'll have to agree to disagree that it's a solid argument. I think it's weak and specious.

You don't exactly give any sources or justification for your arguments either.

Re: Man Arrested for Creating Child Porn Using AI

#107

Post by bitwize »

pessimizer wrote: post #24
bitwize wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No new law is necessary. The PROTECT Act makes all sexually explicit imagery of a minor that does not have artistic or literary merit illegal to produce, distribute, or possess. It closes the "no actual children were involved, it's just fiction/cartoons" loophole.

That stretches the definition of "loophole." It's like calling "truth" the libel loophole. The harm is supposed to be to children.

Many countries criminalize the distribution of child porn, irrespective of whether it's real, drawn, sculpted, or sometimes even written.

If you are caught with loli hentai manga in New Zealand, expect the law to treat you like the chomo you are.

The reason why blanket bans are implemented is not just to punish actual harm, but to avoid creating a demand for material that harms children.

In the USA this kind of blanket ban, though desired by a majority of citizens, has historically not been feasible due to "that pesky First Amendment". So we say it's not about banning speech, it's about banning the abuse of children. And then we say that children get re-abused every time someone procures, distributes, or views this material. (Except when the FBI does it.) And then we're into semantic hair splitting of when exactly child abuse has occured: what if it's Bart Simpson? What if it's an AI deepfake? A photorealistic render of a fictional child? A Shadman cartoon drawing of a real minor e-celeb?

Other countries have eliminated this problem by banning the material altogether irrespective of whether it depicts real or fictional persons, whether photographed, drawn, or computer synthesized. Before 1969, this would even have been possible in the United States. The PROTECT Act gets us closer by criminalizing any material that flunks a Miller obscenity test, which the Supreme Court has ruled is NOT protected under the First Amendment.

Re: Man Arrested for Creating Child Porn Using AI

#108

Post by kelseyfrog »

Retric wrote: post #37
kelseyfrog wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not saying it doesn't, but it may be worth thinking about. I think the path starts with asking, "How do things get normalized? What are the tools of normalization?"

You lost me. Why would normalization have any impact on child predators? People aren’t going to be attracted to kids because they see such things. It’s like arguing gay porn is going to turn people gay.

Thank you for this clarifying point.

You're right. It's probably better to focus on things that have a proven record of impacting child predators or child predation.

Re: Man Arrested for Creating Child Porn Using AI

#109

Post by rstuart4133 »

tmtvl wrote: post #3

Obvious disclaimer first: I do not condone imagery of child abuse, I believe this guy has some kind of psychological problem and needs professional help, AI-generated deepfakes can actually cause real harm and proper regulation is needed. With that out of the way: > the generative AI wrinkle in this particular arrest shows how technology is generating new avenues for crime and child abuse. Is it really child abuse if…

In Australia, someone was jailed for possessing Simpson's cartoon in 2008:

   https://www.computerworld.com/article/1510365
That seemed an like absurd overreach at the time. But Australia has until recently always suffered from overreach in it's censorship laws, so as an Australian I didn't find it surprising.

I always assumed the reason we didn't see the same thing in the US's was the 1st amendment. I guess it's too soon to know if this is just an aberration that will be fixed.

Re: Man Arrested for Creating Child Porn Using AI

#110

Post by rainy59 »

pessimizer wrote: post #20

It's typical for authoritarians, not specific to AI. There are laws hiding all over the place that make drawing pictures illegal. Another Florida Man, Mike Diana, was convicted and sentenced for his (absurdly far from pornography or realism) zine-comic book Boiled Angel , which had a circulation of 300. For 3 years of probation, he was banned from drawing at all, even for personal use. https://cbldf.org/2016/09/mike-…

Florida defines child porn as anyone under the age of 18 so all they need to do is say the AI image depicts a 17 year old. Vaguely written laws are very expensive to fight
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