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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#151

Post by Dalewyn »

alerighi wrote: post #118
bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

Well of course, but this is a feature of Telegram. It's the only messaging app where messages are stored on the cloud. This of course has security implications, but also allows you to have a big number of chats without wasting your device memory like WhatsApp does, or having to delete old conversations, and allows you to access your chats from any device. By the way you can also set a password to log in from another…

>It's the only messaging app where messages are stored on the cloud.

So do all the others with the exception of something like IRC.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#152

Post by EGreg »

tsimionescu wrote: post #147
EGreg wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read the article I link to in that point? After you read it, you'll have a better idea, and then if you have a specific point, we can discuss.

I read it now, and I saw nothing at all about a free market of LEAs, either police or intelligence agencies. It's only speaking about some silly idea of filming every private scene but relying on magic encryption with keys that are stored... Somewhere?... And somehow the keys to decrypt these most private moments are only accessible when it would be nice to do so. It's clearly not a serious idea, so it gives me a goo…

Well, at least you got the broad strokes.

Since the parent post was flagged, I do not see any sense to continue, since no one will really see this conversation.

I do interviews with the top people. I build solutions. I give it away for free. I discuss the actual substance. And in the end it's just flagged before a serious conversation can be had. HN is not what it once was.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#153

Post by jraph »

EGreg wrote: post #133
jraph wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do web3 and crypto moneys have anything to do with the discussion? Decentralized protocols have existed for a very long time. Email have existed since the 70s. Telephone is also arguably decentralized and have existed for even longer.

The technology has potential to be decentralized, but telephones were famously considered a "natural monopoly" and ended up centralized under Ma Bell. Government split Ma Bell into multiple smaller pieces, but they still operated as a cartel and kept prices high. They had centralized telephone switchboard operators etc. It is only when authors of decentralized file-sharing networks like Kazaa (who built them to get a…

> and earning some crypto

You are not answering my main concern. Again, you snick in crypto into the discussion. Why?

We have decentralized stuff. Email, xmpp, matrix, the fediverse, all this works without this web3/crypto stuff. Those things are not perfect, including their decentralized aspect (sometimes to the point of doubting that decentralization really works well, although I personally think decentralization is a good thing).

I didn't downvote you but I suspect this is exactly why you are being downvoted. Since you asked. Many of us just think cryptos and this web3 stuff is bullshit and gets mentioned totally off topic without any convincing link to the discussion every single time.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#154

Post by jxi »

icepat wrote: post #141
tamimio wrote: post #9

It’s not encrypted by default, and even if it were encrypted, you should never trust any connected device with anything important. That being said, Telegram is hands down the best communication platform right now. It is feature-rich, with features implemented years ago that are only now being added to other platforms. It has normal chatting/video calls, groups, channels, and unlimited storage in theory, all for free.…

What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal? Honest question, I only use Signal rather than Telegram.

Signal has probably the worst UX of any messaging app. It also used to require sharing phone numbers to add contacts, which imo is already a privacy violation.

Telegram is fast, responsive, gets frequent updates, has great group chat, tons of animated emojis, works flawlessly on all desktop and mobile platforms, has great support for media, bots, and a great API, allows edits and deleting messages for all users, and I really like the sync despite it not being e2e.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#155

Post by beefnugs »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

Yeah, and the only way to get government to learn about why e2ee is important is to show them that if law enforcement can get it, then so can hackers/phishers. We need as many politicians dark secrets hacked and ousted as possible. It should be a whistblower protected right codified into law to perform such hacks

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#156

Post by xattt »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #142
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's literally the entire point of this article. That is, in this day and age, when people talk about "secure messaging apps" they are usually implying end-to-end encryption, which Telegram most certainly is not for the vast majority of usages.

Also, iMessage is very secure...but then all your stuff is backed up on iCloud servers unless you specifically disable it. That includes all your iCloud encryption keys and plaintext messages. Worse, iPhones immediately start backing up to iCloud when set up for a new user - the only way to keep your network passwords and all manner of other stuff from hitting iCloud servers is to set the phone up with no network con…

Luckily, microwave ovens make easy Faraday cages.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#157

Post by lolinder »

alerighi wrote: post #118
bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

Well of course, but this is a feature of Telegram. It's the only messaging app where messages are stored on the cloud. This of course has security implications, but also allows you to have a big number of chats without wasting your device memory like WhatsApp does, or having to delete old conversations, and allows you to access your chats from any device. By the way you can also set a password to log in from another…

> It's the only messaging app where messages are stored on the cloud.

Besides Slack and Discord and Teams and whatever the heck Google has these days and iMessage and...

I think you mean it's the only messaging app that purports to have a focus on security where messages are stored in the cloud, which is true, but also sus. There's a reason why none of the others are doing it that way, and Telegram isn't really claiming to have solved a technical hurdle that the E2E apps didn't, it's just claiming that you can trust them more than you can trust the major messaging apps.

Maybe you can and maybe you can't, the point is that you can't know that they're actually a safer choice than any of the other cloud providers.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#158

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

innagadadavida wrote: post #83

I am amazed at the low quality comments here. Encryption really doesn’t matter as much as the trust of the app here. Any malicious app author can 100% secure encrypt everything in wire and yet leak 100% of your data to some state actor. Anything you type into the chat box is only encrypted by the app after you type and probably storing it in the clear in some local SQLite db. It gives them a whole bunch of options to…

The malicious app need not be the messaging app either. It could be your keyboard.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#159

Post by theshrike79 »

as1mov wrote: post #110
LudwigNagasena wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doesn't require any personal identifier Do they still not require ID when you buy a SIM card in Ukraine?

Actually I was wrong. Just checked and Telegram does require a phone number to sign up. I haven't used it myself much, but was relaying the general reasons why regular people use it.

You need it to register, but afaik it's not shown to anyone in any way.

You can just grab any prepaid SIM and use it if that's your style

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#160

Post by TeddyDD »

icepat wrote: post #141
tamimio wrote: post #9

It’s not encrypted by default, and even if it were encrypted, you should never trust any connected device with anything important. That being said, Telegram is hands down the best communication platform right now. It is feature-rich, with features implemented years ago that are only now being added to other platforms. It has normal chatting/video calls, groups, channels, and unlimited storage in theory, all for free.…

What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal? Honest question, I only use Signal rather than Telegram.

Good desktop client.
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