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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#51

Post by gospelsod »

331c8c71 wrote: post #13

I am null at cryptography but thie following does not sound too bad as a default tbh. And I think it is misleading to focus solely on e2ee and not mention the distributed aspect. https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests > To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that…

The problem with this approach is that it relies on governments accepting your legal arguments. You can say "no, these are separate legal entities and each one requires a court order from a different country" all you want, but you also need to get the courts themselves to agree to that fact.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#53

Post by lovethevoid »

331c8c71 wrote: post #13

I am null at cryptography but thie following does not sound too bad as a default tbh. And I think it is misleading to focus solely on e2ee and not mention the distributed aspect. https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests > To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that…

https://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/apps/telegram-gibt-nutzerdat...

> Translated: Contrary to what has been publicly stated so far, the operators of the messenger app Telegram have released user data to the Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA) in several cases.

https://torrentfreak.com/telegram-discloses-user-details-of-...

> Telegram has complied with an order from the High Court in Delhi by sharing user details of copyright-infringing users with rightsholders.

Anyways just some examples in which their structure doesn't matter. In the end, user data is still given away. It's also why e2ee should be the sole focus. Everything else is "trust me bro it's safe" levels of security.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#54

Post by lxgr »

331c8c71 wrote: post #13

I am null at cryptography but thie following does not sound too bad as a default tbh. And I think it is misleading to focus solely on e2ee and not mention the distributed aspect. https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests > To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that…

Yes: End-to-end encryption is technically quite difficult, but politically and legally feasible (at least currently, at least in most countries).

Simply not cooperating with law enforcement is technically moderately difficult, but politically and legally impossible.

Between a difficult and an impossible option, the rational decision is to pick the difficult one.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#55

Post by codethief »

ahmedbaracat wrote: post #11

Are there any pointers for work to try to make metadata private (I.e encrypted)? I was recently very curious about this question and asked similar ones here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41267877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41270863 On a side note, I was just recommending Telegram as alternative to WhatsApp (but I did mention that we need to enable Private chats for E2E). It is definitely not an idea…

As mentioned in a comment to one of your posts, the GNUnet people have probably gone the furthest in the quest to obfuscate metadata. Unfortunately, to this day no usable messenger application has come out of this, partially because GNUnet has largely been a research project.

As for applications in use today that address the metadata problem, have a look at Signal's Sealed Sender feature: https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/

As for recommending Telegram for secure messages, I side with the sibling comments ("Don't").

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#56

Post by littlestymaar »

rckt wrote: post #14

This is such an old topic. Every time something related to the Telegram happens, somebody starts a discussion about how it's not an e2e-by-default. But the reality is nobody cares. And considering this, it's ridiculous now that Durov is detained on the accusations of being responsible for all kinds of information that's being spread in non e2e-by-default messenger.

He's not in fact detained because information is being spread, he's detained for actively refusing to cooperate with law enforcement.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#58

Post by aquatica »

jeroenhd wrote: post #30
sharpshadow wrote: post #15

Only the secret chat is e2e encrypted. All the other chat options are not. I think calls are also not encrypted since they appear in the normal chat history not in the e2e chat. Obviously if your phone is compromised your e2ee chat is not safe.

Calls seem tm be e2e encrypted: https://core.telegram.org/api/end-to-end/video-calls No idea how secure the encryption is, but calling someone on Telegram is safer than sending texts.

Only 1-1 calls are encrypted, voice chats (group calls) are not

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#59

Post by kome »

StrLght wrote: post #16
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #6

If telegrams encryption is so bad why is Pavel Durov under arrest? The arrest cites that he was not cooperating with authorities to crack down on various drug illegal activities on telegram. None of the other social networks have their ceos arrested. Is it simply that telegram is the only one without backdoors for five eyes? It seems to me the secret chat feature actually works too well?

I'd suggest waiting for more details from French officials, they have already said that they'll address it tomorrow. So far claims from the media sound like Durov's being prosecuted due to very little moderation on the platform, not because of E2EE. Even so, most messages sent on Telegram are plaintext, they're encrypted only in transport layer, but Telegram's servers see them in full. Secret chats (the only E2EE cha…

> Even so, most messages sent on Telegram are plaintext, they're encrypted only in transport layer, but Telegram's servers see them in full.

you contradict yourself in the same sentence

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#60

Post by mr_mitm »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #6

If telegrams encryption is so bad why is Pavel Durov under arrest? The arrest cites that he was not cooperating with authorities to crack down on various drug illegal activities on telegram. None of the other social networks have their ceos arrested. Is it simply that telegram is the only one without backdoors for five eyes? It seems to me the secret chat feature actually works too well?

Read this: https://fortune.com/crypto/2024/06/27/telegram-dark-net-blac...

Telegram channels are public, unencrypted web shops for all kinds of illegal goods. I guess the French government alleges that Durov is not doing enough to stop these activities on his platform.

It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with encryption.

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