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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#461
post #99

A lot of really terrible takes in this comment section. Telegram didn't have encrypted groups by default, and telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate. Nothing more, nothing less. The comparisons to other providers is off base because either other providers are cooperating more when they possess actionable, unencrypted information and taking s…

Terrible takes notwithstanding, of which there are many, the issue I see with such arguments is that it's always possible to find legal violations that technically justify prosecution or imprisonment. However, the legal system only functions effectively if we trust that those handling the gray areas are motivated by the common good, rather than serving the interests of a select few or protecting an elite minority. Simply focusing on the arrest and comparing it to the alleged criminal activities on Telegram, along with the supposed lack of enforcement by the company, seems like turning a blind eye. It ignores the more likely reality that this is part of a broader effort to establish a censorship regime, with platforms like TikTok, X, Telegram, and Rumble already targeted. Accepting the official narrative and pretext at face value feels, frankly, a bit naive.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#462
post #6

Telegram is genuinely the best general communication platform I have ever used, by far. I really hope he has a good lawyer and this doesn't end up getting essentially murdered for creating it. When you create something that is objectively great, everyone will use it - including bad actors.

The fact bad actors are also using it is not the problem. His unwillingness to moderate content and cooperate with authorities is. Great UX doesn’t suddenly put you above the law.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#463
post #400
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it illegal to offer legal services to undesirables and/or criminals?

In most jurisdictions yes AFAIK, if those services directly help an illegal activity, and you knew about the illegal activity.

Ok, like selling gasoline to the getaway car driver?

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why don’t they arrest them for allowing it to happen? Phone calls should be actively moderated to block customers who speak about terrorist activity.

You really should Google Snowden and PRISM at some point.

Phone calls are transcribed and stored forever.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#465

This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…

> Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do?

Because they let their users do it and benefited from it. Try doing the same thing as a bank :) Or a newspaper :)

Internet cannot be anarchy forever. Every anarchy ends up as oligarchy. It needs regulation and fast.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#466
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One cannot legally run a hosted, unmoderated content platform in the developed world, one will always be required to remove illegal materials and turn over materials in cooperation with law enforcement. Just would like to clarify, Telegram does take down channels/bots in some cases including copyright infringement. The only bots I’ve dealt with were music downloaders so I don’t know much about other kinds of takedo…

They do it whenever the risk of Apple or Google kicking them out of their respective app stores becomes too great. That's presumably the only entities they take content moderation input from.

[deleted]

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eliminating child pornography and organised crime is a societal rather than 'government' interest. And rightly.

>Eliminating child pornography and organised crime is a societal rather than 'government' interest. Empirically speaking, governments have had absolutely zero success at this, but their attempts to do so have gotten them the kind of legal power over your life that organised crime could only dream about.

Huh? The traditional mafia is almost non-existent in the US today. RICO and its application has been highly successful at taking down the mafia.

You could certainly argue that RICO was too powerful and is often misapplied, but I've never before seen anyone argue that it has been ineffective.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#468
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You like it better than Signal? The only thing I know Telegram for is several of my girlfriend’s relatives being exposed to crazy scams and right-wing conspiracy theories and misinformation on it.

This is exactly my experience as well. I have never actually used telegram as I was early a signal user and never needed it but my ex used it. All she ever used it for was conspiracy garbage she would follow. Anti covid vaccine doctors and groups mainly. The amount of misinformation she tried to show me and every time I would show her how it was fake she still would not believe me. Then she was even scammed out of $1…

The reason you consider all that misinformation is because it's politically sensitive information and every single other social media company and the vast majority of western-aligned media censor it, so the only place you come across such information is in the uncensored Telegram platform, and assume it must be false because all the other media you consume tells you so.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#469

This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…

Because these countries are hypocrites. Because politics, because these guys are from Russia, China. You can so obviously see there's discrimination against companies from those countries. Can you imagine France do this if it's a US company?

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#470

This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…

> Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do?

I think this is simplified. Certainly yes, if "all" Telegram was doing was operating a neutral/unmoderated anonymized chat service, then it's hard to see criminal culpability for the reasons you list.

But as people are pointing out, that doesn't seem to be technically correct. Telegram isn't completely anonymous, does have access to important customer data, and is widely suspected of complying with third party requests for that data for law enforcement and regulatory reasons.

So... IF they are doing that, and they're doing it in a non-neutral/non-anonymized way, then they're very plausibly subject to prosectution. Say, if you get a report of terrorist activity and provide data on the terrorists, then a month later get notified that your service is being used to distribute CSAM, and you refuse to cooperate, then it's not that far a reach to label you an accessory to the crime.

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