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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#391

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

mazambazz wrote: post #335
brookst wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Specifically, these service providers I’m not a fan of this arrest and I don’t believe service providers have a duty to contravene their security promises so as to monitor their users. But it seems pretty obvious that governments find the monitoring that Google / Reddit / etc do acceptable, and do not find operation of unmonitorable services acceptable.

All right, what about logless VPN providers like Mullvad? > do not find operation of unmonitorable services acceptable. Sounds like something straight out of a dystopian surveillance state novel, very bad outlook if true.

VPNs don't pose an obstacle to monitoring any specific activity, and as many VPN-using criminals have found, even their ability to stop law enforcement from identifying you is limited. So they've been less of an issue. Having said that, I would note that Mullavad was forced to remove port forwarding in response to law enforcement interest, and I don't think it would be too surprising (or too dystopian) if in the future "connection laundering" is a crime just like money laundering.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#392

Post by throwaway17216 »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #201
mazambazz wrote: post #29

This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…

> Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. WORSE, you get banned for reporting CSAM to Discord, and I guarantee if you report it to the proper authorities (FBI) they tell them t…

Yep. At this point, it's clear to me that Discord is acting with malice. On top of banning people for reporting abuse on their platform, which is by itself insanity, they changed their report system [0] so it's longer possible to report servers/channel/users at all, only specific messages, with no way to report messages in bulk being provided.

Reddit isn't much better. [1]

[0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/discordapp/comments/14sx8fz/discord...

[1]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/25/22399306/reddit-lawsuit-c...

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#393

Post by user_7832 »

devman0 wrote: post #99

A lot of really terrible takes in this comment section. Telegram didn't have encrypted groups by default, and telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate. Nothing more, nothing less. The comparisons to other providers is off base because either other providers are cooperating more when they possess actionable, unencrypted information and taking s…

> One cannot legally run a hosted, unmoderated content platform in the developed world, one will always be required to remove illegal materials and turn over materials in cooperation with law enforcement.

Just would like to clarify, Telegram does take down channels/bots in some cases including copyright infringement. The only bots I’ve dealt with were music downloaders so I don’t know much about other kinds of takedowns, but it’s wrong to say that telegram doesn’t/didn’t take down material. Perhaps not enough or frequently enough, and I certainly don’t condone immoral activities- but they do do it sometimes.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#394

Post by bryanlarsen »

whimsicalism wrote: post #345
StrLght wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like other platforms without E2EE are managing to do that without any issues whatsoever (e.g. Discord)

discord has hundreds of content moderators, telegram is made by a team of 30 people i don’t think messaging startups should be required to employ hundreds of people to read messages

A startup wouldn't need hundreds of people, they don't have millions of daily messages yet. Only successful businesses like Telegram would.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#397

Post by Svoka »

nicolas_t wrote: post #175

I was fully expecting him to be arrested by a third world dictatorship somewhere but, no it's my home country, France. I'm ashamed of my country. Most of the traffic on Telegram is not even encrypted... EDIT: Yes, reading more about it, nothing to see here, it's not about encryption...

Why? He seems to be happily providing information to KGB (sorry, FSB), russian security service or ignoring backdoors they already have. In fact, telegram is one of the most powerful disinformation tool employed by russia. None of sane and savvy person who stands up to autority would use telegram.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#398

Post by itohihiyt »

dns_snek wrote: post #107
itohihiyt wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is telegram wasn't cooperating with authorities in the jurisdictions in which it was operating; be that moderation, interception, etc.

It's incorrect to say that they weren't cooperating with authorities at all. In the EU, Telegram blocked access to certain channels that the EU deemed to be Russian disinformation, for example.

I don't think you can pick and choose what you comply with.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#399

Post by peoplefromibiza »

Aurornis wrote: post #318
marcinzm wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those providers cooperate with authorities and moderate their content to a fairly large degree?

This distinction gets lost in these discussions all of the time. A company that makes an effort to comply with laws is in a completely different category than a company that makes the fact that they’ll look the other way one of their core selling points. Years ago there was a case where someone built a business out of making hidden compartments in cars. He did an amazing job of making James Bond style hidden compartm…

> operating in a manner where one of your selling points is that you’ll help anyone out even when their intent is to break the law

is it what happened here?

in my view Durov is the owner renting his apartment and not caring what people do inside it, which is not illegal, someone could go as fare as say that it is morally reprensible, but it's not illegal in any way.

It would be different if Durov knew but did not report it.

Which, again, doesn't seem what happened here and it must be proven in a court anyway, I believe everyone in our western legal systems still has the right to the presumption of innocence.

Telegram not spying on its users is the same thing as Mullvad not spying on its users and not saving the logs. I consider it a feature not a bug, for sure not complicity in any crime whatsoever.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#400

Post by moqmar »

kyleee wrote: post #371
Aurornis wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This distinction gets lost in these discussions all of the time. A company that makes an effort to comply with laws is in a completely different category than a company that makes the fact that they’ll look the other way one of their core selling points. Years ago there was a case where someone built a business out of making hidden compartments in cars. He did an amazing job of making James Bond style hidden compartm…

Is it illegal to offer legal services to undesirables and/or criminals?

In most jurisdictions yes AFAIK, if those services directly help an illegal activity, and you knew about the illegal activity.
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