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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#381

Post by [deleted] »

psychoslave wrote: post #303
thomassmith65 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do [...] maybe I'm just being naive? In this case, the comment does strike me as naive. Back in the 1990s the tech community convinced itself (myself included) that Napster had zero ethical responsibility for the mass piracy it enabled. In reality, law in a society is supposed to serve that society. The tech community talked itself into believing tha…

This comment can itself be said to take for granted the naive view of what law it exposes. Law is a way to enforce a policy on massive scale, sure. But there is no guarantee that it enforces things that are aiming the best equilibrium of everyone flourishing in society. And even when it does, laws are done by humans, so unless they results from a highly dynamic process that gather feedback from those on which it appl…

[deleted]

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#382

Post by Der_Einzige »

poszlem wrote: post #265
hdbejs wrote: post #158

Many defend Telegram by likening it to a neutral platform, akin to TCP, claiming it merely provides a service without responsibility for the content. However, this comparison fails because TCP is a simple protocol with no ability to control or monitor content, whereas Telegram holds keys for most data and is capable of content moderation. Unlike E2EE platforms like Signal, which cannot comply with requests without br…

FWIW this post is ChatGPT generated at least partially.

"Lol, are we just calling everything ChatGPT now whenever something is remotely coherent? Unless you're sitting on some actual proof, that claim feels like a lazy handwave. Like, maybe it's just... a person? Not everything well-written is AI-generated, you know"

---------------------------------------------

Write a witty, hackernews comment responding to this post from a user:

"FWIW this post is ChatGPT generated at least partially."

Avoid using all language choices characteristic of text which was generated by ChatGPT. Call the user out for having no evidence. Add a few spelling errors characteristic of folks typing on their phone

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#383

Post by squidbeak »

whimsicalism wrote: post #273
StrLght wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the key part: Telegram doesn’t have E2EE enabled by default. Group chats and channels aren’t encrypted at all. The only E2EE in Telegram is called "secret chats" and they're 1-on-1.

frankly, even with unencrypted chats, any law/precedent requiring that platform providers have to scale moderation linearly with the number of users (which is effectively what this is saying) sounds like really bad policy (and probably further prevents the EU from building actual competitors to American tech companies)

A straightforward legal responsibility should be shirked because scaling moderation is hard? How many other difficult things do you propose moving outside the law?

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#384

Post by DLoupe »

saintfrancis wrote: post #70
marcinzm wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those providers cooperate with authorities and moderate their content to a fairly large degree?

How does Meta cooperate with the authorities? Isn't Whatsapp supposed to be end-to-end encrypted?

The chats are encrypted but the backup saved in the cloud isn't. So if someone gets access to your Google Drive he can read your WhatsApp chats. You can opt-in to encrypt the backup but it doesn't work well.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#385

Post by alephnerd »

kyleee wrote: post #371
Aurornis wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This distinction gets lost in these discussions all of the time. A company that makes an effort to comply with laws is in a completely different category than a company that makes the fact that they’ll look the other way one of their core selling points. Years ago there was a case where someone built a business out of making hidden compartments in cars. He did an amazing job of making James Bond style hidden compartm…

Is it illegal to offer legal services to undesirables and/or criminals?

Yes.

If you are directly aiding and abetting without any plausible attempt to minimize bad actors from using your services then absolutely.

For example, CP absolutely exists on platforms like FB or IG, but Meta will absolutely try to moderate it away to the best of their ability and cooperate with law enforcement when it is brought to their attention.

And like I have mentioned a couple times before, Telegram was only allowed to exist because the UAE allowed them to, and both the UAE and Russia gained ownership stakes in Telegram by 2021. Also, messaging apps can only legally operate in the UAE if they provide decryption keys to the UAE govt because all instant messaging apps are treated as VoIP under their Telco regulation laws.

There have been plenty of cases where anti-Russian govt content was moderated away during the 2021 protests - https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat...

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#386

Post by lxgr »

NayamAmarshe wrote: post #152
matheusmoreira wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Compared to other apps like WhatsApp with claims of E2EE and no body of verification and validation. We do have at least some empirical evidence that WhatsApp is properly encrypted. WhatsApp's cryptography has made judges in my country foam at the mouth with rage so hard they ordered retaliatory nation wide blocks of the service at least twice. People are right to distrust Meta but I for one am glad that everyone I…

> We do have at least some empirical evidence that WhatsApp is properly encrypted so do we. Telegram's MTProto 2.0 has been audited multiple times by independent researchers, compared to WhatsApp's closed-source claims of E2EE. I'd rather trust a company with a proven track record of no security incidents and fight for user privacy than a corporation which lies through its teeth time and again.

We can agree on the statement "Telegram does not cooperate with law enforcement authorities".

This is however something completely different from and largely orthogonal to "Telegram does not have access to their users' message contents".

The fact that they are consistently claiming the former and the latter makes them seem extremely untrustworthy to me.

Gaining my trust requires truthfulness and transparencies about the capabilities and limits of a service provider's technology (but of course is in no way sufficient).

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#388

Post by itvision »

NayamAmarshe wrote: post #106
kelsey98765431 wrote: post #51

> jpost.com > • 5 hours ago > Pavel Durov, Telegram founder, arrested by France following warrant - The Jerusalem Post > The alleged offenses include: terrorism, narcotic supply, fraud, money laundering and receiving stolen goods. For those unaware, all channel on telegram are NOT ENCRYPTED. They are stored in plaintext on telegram servers. All chats that are not 'secret chat' mode (single device to single device) ar…

> They are stored in plaintext on telegram servers FYI, this is a totally misleading and false claim. Telegram uses the MTProto 2.0 Cloud algorithm for non-secret chats[1][2]. In fact, it uses a split-key encryption system and the servers are all stored in multiple jurisdictions. So even Telegram employees can't decrypt the chats, because you'd need to compromise all the servers at the same time. Telegram's algorithm…

> FYI, this is a totally misleading and false claim.

> Telegram uses the MTProto 2.0 Cloud algorithm for non-secret chats[1][2].

FYI you don't understand encryption and are spewing pristine BS.

Only p2p secret chats use e2e encryption and are invisible to Telegram employees.

Everything else is stored in plain text on Telegram servers.

The OP was correct and your counter argument is void and null.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#389

Post by philjohn »

itohihiyt wrote: post #64
Infinity315 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those services don't get shown reports of CSAM and then turn a blind eye to it and do nothing about it. A person witnessing a crime by itself is not a crime. However, a person witnessing a crime and choosing not to report it is a crime.

I don't think it's a crime not to report a crime, at least not where I live. But facilitating a crime, which is something you could accuse telegram of is.

CSAM is different - in the US, as well as france, the law designates the service provider as a mandatory reporter. If you find CSAM and don't report the user who posted it to authorities (and Telegram have phone numbers of users) then they are breaking the law.

https://www.icmec.org/csam-model-legislation/

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#390

Post by xyst »

Law enforcement is so ill equipped in this digital age. It’s embarrassing. Instead of evolving, they are punishing the people creating services that benefit everybody.

Reminds me of the Tornado Cash service. Used by normal citizens to anonymize transactions on the blockchain; and used by a smaller percentage of criminals. Law enforcement is inept in this digital age. So instead of catching the actual criminals they pursue the people making the service.

It’s all for nothing of course. People were apparently brought up on charges. None of them actual criminals as I recall. Just got thrown the book at them. US government even issued “sanctions”, but they were useless.

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