Israel Is Winning in Gaza • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel Is Winning in Gaza

#21

Post by aguaviva » Sun, Aug 25, 2024, 2:18 PM UTC

weatherlite wrote: post #18

aguaviva wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no much talk of historical claims on Gaza from Israelis besides very fringe groups who don't number a lot of people. They're certainly quite obnoxious, these groups. But they can't be called "fringe" anymore, now that they've been made coalition partners in the 37th government (receiving very prominent cabinet positions to boot). Meanwhile Israel's expansionist claims on the West Bank have been the de-facto n…

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I meant there are no real intentions to settle Gaza with settlers, not in government or civil society.

  In front of an impassioned audience of thousands of right-wing activists, 11 government ministers and 15 coalition lawmakers pledged Sunday night to rebuild Jewish Israeli settlements in the heart of the Gaza Strip, with some also encouraging the emigration of the Palestinian population after the war with Hamas is over.

  Speaking amid a carnival-like atmosphere at the Jerusalem International Convention Center, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, the leader of the ultranationalist Religious Zionism party, extolled the virtues of creating new settlements, declaring: “God willing, we will settle and we will be victorious.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/12-ministers-call-to-resettle-...

Re: Israel Is Winning in Gaza

#22

Post by aguaviva » Sun, Aug 25, 2024, 2:28 PM UTC

weatherlite wrote: post #20

dunekid wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the complication in West Bank? It is under occupation by all means. And also under apartheid. Occupying West Bank completely might also be just fringe ideas, that are not worth paying attention to? Is it the complication of Smotrich price-tagging Palestinians by creating as many illegal occupations as the number of countries recognising the Palestinian people's lives?

By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested. There's a very powerful national religious minority that is able to keep them alive but that's more due to political deadlock than due to widespread support (I'm not arguing some support exists but its not huge, and Smotrich btw is expected not to make it…

By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested.

No "mainstream support"?

It's run as an administrative area of the State of Israel, "administered by the Israel Defense Forces Central Command, and military law is applied":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_and_Samaria_Area

Re: Israel Is Winning in Gaza

#23

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 25, 2024, 4:08 PM UTC

weatherlite wrote: post #20

dunekid wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the complication in West Bank? It is under occupation by all means. And also under apartheid. Occupying West Bank completely might also be just fringe ideas, that are not worth paying attention to? Is it the complication of Smotrich price-tagging Palestinians by creating as many illegal occupations as the number of countries recognising the Palestinian people's lives?

By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested. There's a very powerful national religious minority that is able to keep them alive but that's more due to political deadlock than due to widespread support (I'm not arguing some support exists but its not huge, and Smotrich btw is expected not to make it…

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Re: Israel Is Winning in Gaza

#24

Post by aguaviva » Sun, Aug 25, 2024, 4:12 PM UTC

weatherlite wrote: post #20

dunekid wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the complication in West Bank? It is under occupation by all means. And also under apartheid. Occupying West Bank completely might also be just fringe ideas, that are not worth paying attention to? Is it the complication of Smotrich price-tagging Palestinians by creating as many illegal occupations as the number of countries recognising the Palestinian people's lives?

By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested. There's a very powerful national religious minority that is able to keep them alive but that's more due to political deadlock than due to widespread support (I'm not arguing some support exists but its not huge, and Smotrich btw is expected not to make it…

We also have e.g.:

   When it comes to Jewish settlements in the West Bank, 40% of the public say they help Israeli national security, while 35% say they hurt. An additional 21% think settlements don’t make much difference to the country’s security.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/settlements-an...

Plus there's the fact that the country, despite all its internal divisions, managed to put a certain Benjamin Netanyahu -- who has declared the expansion of the settlements to be a "top priority" -- in office 3 times (for some 17 years total so far). And all the mainstream society hate for Oslo and 2SS, and so on.

These are just a few of many obvious indicators. Of course many feel conflicted about the settlements, and only support them the perceived "security" advantages, and so on. But it's just not tenable to say that the settlements "don't really have mainstream support".

When by all indications, the imperative to support and maintain them has been national consensus for several decades now.

Re: Israel Is Winning in Gaza

#25

Post by runarberg » Sun, Aug 25, 2024, 4:47 PM UTC

aguaviva wrote: post #24

weatherlite wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested. There's a very powerful national religious minority that is able to keep them alive but that's more due to political deadlock than due to widespread support (I'm not arguing some support exists but its not huge, and Smotrich btw is expected not to make it…

We also have e.g.: When it comes to Jewish settlements in the West Bank, 40% of the public say they help Israeli national security, while 35% say they hurt. An additional 21% think settlements don’t make much difference to the country’s security. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/settlements-an... Plus there's the fact that the country, despite all its internal divisions, managed to put a certain Benjamin…

This is all on top of the fact that these settlements—even without expansion—are unambiguously breaking international law. Popular support against it—real or not—does not make this more complicated. A politician who does not support dismantling these settlements, return the land to Palestinians, and pay reparations, is obviously wrong. This describes almost all Israeli politicians, and is not fringe, nor complicated. The existence of politicians who go further only complicates matter in making things worse by providing a possibility for illegal policy not only maintained, but also expanded.

That said, I agree with you, I don’t believe this is only a fringe position that has no relevance on current or future policy which breaks international law.

Re: Israel Is Winning in Gaza

#26

Post by weatherlite » Sun, Aug 25, 2024, 5:03 PM UTC

aguaviva wrote: post #24

weatherlite wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested. There's a very powerful national religious minority that is able to keep them alive but that's more due to political deadlock than due to widespread support (I'm not arguing some support exists but its not huge, and Smotrich btw is expected not to make it…

We also have e.g.: When it comes to Jewish settlements in the West Bank, 40% of the public say they help Israeli national security, while 35% say they hurt. An additional 21% think settlements don’t make much difference to the country’s security. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/settlements-an... Plus there's the fact that the country, despite all its internal divisions, managed to put a certain Benjamin…

That some Israelis believe the settlements help security makes much more sense considering what happened after Israel disengaged from Gaza and uprooted all settlements there - things became much much worse (both for Israel and for Gaza) as I think we all can agree. Another thing is that Israel is in the middle of a horrible war so the public mood for obvious reasons goes much more to the right. If you ask the Palestinian public questions about peace prospects you wouldn't hear a lot of great things either.

If push came to shove most Israelis wouldn't care at all if settlements are uprooted again just like Israel did in Gaza, the only Israelis out protesting last time Israel took out settlements were religious Zionists: determined, loud, sometimes violent but definitely not mainstream. No one else cared much.

Even the pew numbers you are showing tell that even now the settlements at the very least are controversial in Israel and definitely not mainstream (no majority is saying they help security).

Re: Israel Is Winning in Gaza

#27

Post by weatherlite » Sun, Aug 25, 2024, 5:07 PM UTC

aguaviva wrote: post #22

weatherlite wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested. There's a very powerful national religious minority that is able to keep them alive but that's more due to political deadlock than due to widespread support (I'm not arguing some support exists but its not huge, and Smotrich btw is expected not to make it…

By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested. No "mainstream support"? It's run as an administrative area of the State of Israel, "administered by the Israel Defense Forces Central Command, and military law is applied": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_and_Samaria_Area

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Re: Israel Is Winning in Gaza

#28

Post by runarberg » Sun, Aug 25, 2024, 5:55 PM UTC

weatherlite wrote: post #26

aguaviva wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also have e.g.: When it comes to Jewish settlements in the West Bank, 40% of the public say they help Israeli national security, while 35% say they hurt. An additional 21% think settlements don’t make much difference to the country’s security. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/settlements-an... Plus there's the fact that the country, despite all its internal divisions, managed to put a certain Benjamin…

That some Israelis believe the settlements help security makes much more sense considering what happened after Israel disengaged from Gaza and uprooted all settlements there - things became much much worse (both for Israel and for Gaza) as I think we all can agree. Another thing is that Israel is in the middle of a horrible war so the public mood for obvious reasons goes much more to the right. If you ask the Palesti…

That some Israelis believe the settlements help security only makes sense in the same way white Rhodesians believed counter insurgency made them safe[1]. The settlements are unambiguously illegal and they do infringe on civil rights of Palestinians. There is nothing complicated here. The Israelis that believe this are just wrong, and probably racist, and they have no rights to these wrong beliefs to be entered as policy.

Relevant here is what actually gets enacted as a policy and at what time. The Israeli government knows full well that these settlements are illegal, that they are morally wrong, and that they strip Palestinians of their civil rights, but they keep it as policy to maintain and expend them anyway. With that knowledge we can assume they don’t care about Palestinian civil rights. And as long as the Israeli electorate doesn’t see this as a deal breaker—which demonstrably, they don’t—we can (and honestly should) assume similar policies in Gaza. At the very least we should belief elected official when they claim they want to violate human rights of Palestinians. Especially now as they have demonstrated they are both willing and capable of committing a genocide.

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLmD23UpLOo&pp=ygUIcmhvZGVza...

Re: Israel Is Winning in Gaza

#29

Post by NomDePlum » Sun, Aug 25, 2024, 9:29 PM UTC

weatherlite wrote: post #9

runarberg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or, Israel could have avoided going to war with Hamas altogether and tried to release the hostages with a deal by giving in to all of Hamas demands [...] can't imagine any other country on earth taking that option I do wonder whether history backs up this statement. When I hear about hostages taken by terrorists in the news, most of the time, if they are released, and if I remember accurately, they are released via…

You are ignoring the fact that Hamas wants to bring Israel down by force, it explicitly said it would repeat October 7th. So getting back the hostages is only a part of the problem, there is the issue of existential threat to Israel. And this is all speculation anyway, who knows if Hamas would have been willing to free all hostages - why would it, it could have kept humiliating Israel right after massacring its popul…

About 50 hostages where released based on negotiations over 9 months ago.

Re: Israel Is Winning in Gaza

#30

Post by weatherlite » Mon, Aug 26, 2024, 4:23 AM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #28

weatherlite wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That some Israelis believe the settlements help security makes much more sense considering what happened after Israel disengaged from Gaza and uprooted all settlements there - things became much much worse (both for Israel and for Gaza) as I think we all can agree. Another thing is that Israel is in the middle of a horrible war so the public mood for obvious reasons goes much more to the right. If you ask the Palesti…

That some Israelis believe the settlements help security only makes sense in the same way white Rhodesians believed counter insurgency made them safe[1]. The settlements are unambiguously illegal and they do infringe on civil rights of Palestinians. There is nothing complicated here. The Israelis that believe this are just wrong, and probably racist, and they have no rights to these wrong beliefs to be entered as pol…

> That some Israelis believe the settlements help security only makes sense in the same way white Rhodesians believed counter insurgency made them safe[1]

I have no idea what happened in Rhodesia and I don't think yet another comparison (let me guess - it makes Israel look bad right?) is helpful. The reality is the last disengagement from Gaza went absolutely horribly. Palestinians should also have a big burden to prove they can handle Israel disengaging - so far they absolutely haven't - in Gaza they've been using all their money and energy to try create armies and infrastructure to bring Israel down. We should also believe them when they're saying October 7th was just the start and that "from the river to the sea" Palestine is theirs - this is not some "far right" Palestinian talking point but pretty much a unanimous Palestinian position.

I'm not going to engage your genocide allegation, you're free to believe what you want and we're not going to change each other's minds on this.