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We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

takes.jamesomalley.co.uk

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Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#201

Post by PaulRobinson »

beardyw wrote: post #77
simonbarker87 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence why a house number and postcode constitutes a complete address in the UK, we’ve sort of already got What Three Words with “a number and 5-7 characters” - not quite as catchy though

We needed an ambulance off road in the middle of Richmond Park where a postcode would also not help. We didn't have WTW either, which they asked for and would have helped immensely.

w3w has been sold to most UK emergency services to deal with that exact scenario. I know Richmond Park well, and it's hard to direct anybody to anywhere in it using addresses, so it makes sense.

The problem is that w3w is privately owned and has multiple issues with it, as well documented elsewhere.

They could invest in a solution that allows for an OS grid reference to be discovered by sending you a link (a bit like they do with w3w), or some other open (already paid for) reference. That still has limitations if you don't have a smart phone with GPS on it, but I'd argue it's better than what they have right now.

Of course none of this solves for the fact the most useful location dataset in the country is the PAF, and we can't use that without spending a small fortune on licensing it.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#202

Post by thfuran »

febusravenga wrote: post #180
Mirepox wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I felt your reply was too harsh, but after few moments I realized that I instinctively think the same I treat any output from ChatGpt as garbage until checked in other sources. So effectively, not worth looking there in the first place.

I think that it's often easier to verify an answer than to find an answer with nothing to go on, so perhaps not entirely garbage but certainly not reliable.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#203

Post by wongarsu »

willyt wrote: post #187
manarth wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The BAN provide fields `long` and `lat` which are WGS84, and also `x` and `y` which are coordinates expressed in "the appropriate local CRS" (without much elaboration on what that would be).

That would be the French national grid system, no? The UK has the ordnance survey grid which is based on the OSGB36 datum. I'm pretty sure France will have a similar national datum to create their own local grid coordinates as planning and building works needs to be done in a more accurately aligned local datum than WGS84.

For mainland France it's reasonable to assume the French national grid. But what about French Guiana in South America or Mayotte in Southern Africa (an island north of Madagascar)?

France still spans the globe, with many places treated as equals to the French mainland.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#204

Post by stevekemp »

Ekaros wrote: post #105
tomsmeding wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like chaos. Who thought constructing multiple apartment buildings without any kind of sensible post code or address was a good idea? Sure, this being reality BAN does not apparently meet reality, but it does sound like someone had the opportunity to keep reality sane here, and they didn't.

In Finland in similar case, each stair well has own letter and each apartment has different number. So those are used always with the street house number. Though the later case is bit messy with cross roads. As building can have two different addresses. Or same complex of multiple building have two different addresses for each building. With in my case one having A-C and other D-F stairwells... Oh, and numbers also a…

I live in Finland nowadays, and this system is nice.

I moved from Scotland where there are frequently buildings containing multiple apartments - tenements - there are there are two systems for the labeling of the apartments.

The first is the obvious one, "flat 1", "flat 2", "flat 3" (often this would be written after the number of the street - so flat six at number seven example road would be called 7/6 Example Road).

The second approach is the more physical layout. I used to live in "TFL, 7 Example Street". "TFL? Top flat - left side". You get "GFR" for "Ground-floor right", and similar examples. This worked really well if there were three floors to a building (top floor, middle floor, and ground floor) but the confusion got intensified if the building were higher.

There were times when you'd enter your postcode into an online service, ordering a home delivery for example, or setting up a new electricity contract, and you'd be presented with one/other of these systems. And broadly speaking it would always be the same. When I lived at TFL it was *never* called Flat 6, although I'd often enter it as 7/6 Example Street a time or two just to keep the posties on their toes!

To be honest most of the time the postal delivery people were smart, if I got mail addressed to "Steve, 7 Example Road" it would end up at the correct apartment. Either because the postal delivery person knew - they tended to have fixed routes - or one of my neighbours would do the decent thing and redelivery if it was sent to them in error.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#205

Post by psd1 »

ascorbic wrote: post #60

As he points out, this was a profoundly stupid mistake made when privatising Royal Mail. It would have been trivially easy to do at that point, but now it's a lot harder. If the government decided that it does want to do this, it can't just pass a law that says "the PAF is now free" without paying hundreds of millions of pounds in compensation to Royal Mail. That's quite apart from the ongoing costs of maintaining th…

No mistake; Hanlon's Razor does not apply; the current situation is a desired outcome.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#206

Post by willyt »

jetbooster wrote: post #139
chgs wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d expect a modern government to design something as clear and well regarded as the GDS stuff in the U.K. I’d expect a corporation like ibm etc to design the total mess we see with any large project

Sadly I feel GDS is more of an outlier than the rule.

Transport for London is a pretty tightly run ship. Only capital city in the world that doesn't receive operating subsidy for its public transport. Not that that is a good thing necessarily as the tube is expensive to use relative to Paris or Berlin but a pretty impressive achievement considering the ancient complexity of the whole thing.

Scotrail is run by the Scottish government and has been steadily electrifying the Scottish rail network and because of the slow and steady nature of the work, between them, Network rail and the OHLE contractors they have got the cost for this down to 5 times less per km than typical UK costs previously e.g. the great western main line.

The moral of the story is get good people, give them stability and a clear goal and they will do great work. It doesn't really matter if they are working for the government or the private sector.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#207

Post by toomuchtodo »

cuonic wrote: post #10

On the other side of the Channel, the French government has managed to create the "BAN" (Base Adresse Nationale - National Address Database), a database of detailed postal addresses in the country along with precise GPS coordinates: https://adresse.data.gouv.fr/base-adresse-nationale On top of the database they have provided an interface to view the data, interfaces for towns and cities to keep the data up-to-date, f…

Is there a a reason this hasn't been pushed for at the EU level?

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#208

Post by sowbug »

pxeger1 wrote: post #199
ascorbic wrote: post #60

As he points out, this was a profoundly stupid mistake made when privatising Royal Mail. It would have been trivially easy to do at that point, but now it's a lot harder. If the government decided that it does want to do this, it can't just pass a law that says "the PAF is now free" without paying hundreds of millions of pounds in compensation to Royal Mail. That's quite apart from the ongoing costs of maintaining th…

> it can't just pass a law that says "the PAF is now free" without paying hundreds of millions of pounds in compensation to Royal Mail Why not? Parliament has the ability to make whatever laws it wants, no?

In the US, the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution says the government cannot take private property for public use without providing just compensation. I don't know whether any similar right exists in the UK.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#209

Post by postepowanieadm »

myriadoptimum wrote: post #144
Propelloni wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like bad design by the property developer and a sloppy building authority. The first is corroborated by the lack of unit numbers. Who does such a thing? The BAN actually only tracks down to the plot level, so I assume all your structures are on the same plot. From there on it is the building authorities job to check building plans and to enter the substructures into the cadastre, where they are usually le…

Depending on where you are in France (especially places with lots of housing stock being older buildings), it's common (if not the norm) for there to be no unit numbers and to direct people to apartments by floor number / door position relative to stairwell.

That may be because Code Civile allowing(used to allow)((par 664?)) ownership of floors.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#210

Post by psd1 »

incompatible wrote: post #109
londons_explore wrote: post #71

The simple solution here is a threat from the government to Royal Mail. Give us your postcode file for free, or we will simply make up a new numbering scheme, send an address card to every house telling them of their new number with their next council tax bill, and postcodes will become a thing of the past. The new numbering scheme will be unique to each house too, and have a check digit so the number alone is suffic…

Just modify the law so that databases of postal addresses are not copyrightable.

I'm in favour, but that leaves RM holding a database of non-copyrightable addresses.

One way or the other, a private asset must be either nationalised or compelled to be released.

Gradual renationalisation of the rail network was in the manifesto. That's not particularly contentious, as rail franchises have fixed terms. But the manifesto is all about steadying the ship, and militant nationalisation risks spooking investors, so whether the government has any appetite to nationalise anything by fiat is questionable.

Nonetheless, there's public support for renationalisation; and, for such a low-value asset, this might be a nice test of the waters.

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