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Evidence stacks up for poisonous books containing toxic dyes

phys.org

21–30 of 70 posts

Re: Evidence stacks up for poisonous books containing toxic dyes

#21

Something that I've noticed, that I wonder if it could be an useful (although very blunt force) heuristic for thinking about chemicals: Chemicals with strong effects (e.g. bright colors, the ability to permanently set dye, powerful adhesives and epoxies, breathable waterproofing, etc.) often achieve their effect via strong chemical reactions. Strong chemical reactions have a good chance of being able to interact with…

>physical rather than chemical properties

The field of physical chemistry is going to blow your mind.

Re: Evidence stacks up for poisonous books containing toxic dyes

#22

It didn't seem to be mentioned in the article, but have these covers always been unsafe to handle, or has the problem got worse as the books get older and maybe the chemicals are more likely to leech out or be released as dust etc? If they've always been toxic, I'm kind of surprised that it wasn't noticed at the time. And presumably, there was a point when we stopped using these dyes. Was that because we knew the ris…

They were always toxic, and people got poisoned. Generally safety was not something victorians spend a lot of energy on.

Sometimes things are weird like that. Like how lead was put in petrol even when the toxicity of lead was known.

Re: Evidence stacks up for poisonous books containing toxic dyes

#23

> "I find it fascinating to know what previous generations thought was safe, and then we learn, oh, actually, that might not have been a great idea to use these brilliant dyes," Weinstein-Webb says. Yep. William Morris was a divil for this, and refused to acknowledge the dangers well past when they were known. I wonder though - in terms of human potential and lives lost, do all of those examples put together come any…

I've been learning to use makeup recently and I've been surprised at how common it is to do things that I would instinctively avoid. (I realize this is probably all extremely pedestrian for people who grew up wearing makeup, but it was surprising to me).

For example, it's fairly common to use eyeliner on the "waterline" of your eye where it will wash off into your eye over time. You need to reapply lipstick periodically; partially because some of it ends up getting washed off and swallowed. A lot of these eye and lip makeups contain (cosmetic grade) glitter. A lot of makeup is in the form of sticky sprays or powders that presumably get partially inhaled.

I don't mean this as some sort of hysterical "makeup is a conspiracy to kill us!!1!1" sort of thing. I know that it goes through extensive testing and is probably mostly safe. However, I do wonder if some of these might eventually be found to be less safe then we originally thought.

Re: Evidence stacks up for poisonous books containing toxic dyes

#24
post #21

Something that I've noticed, that I wonder if it could be an useful (although very blunt force) heuristic for thinking about chemicals: Chemicals with strong effects (e.g. bright colors, the ability to permanently set dye, powerful adhesives and epoxies, breathable waterproofing, etc.) often achieve their effect via strong chemical reactions. Strong chemical reactions have a good chance of being able to interact with…

>physical rather than chemical properties The field of physical chemistry is going to blow your mind.

Ya, I'm definitely speaking in VERY broad strokes here because this isn't my area of expertise! I was just meaning that in comparison to what's called "chemical sunscreen" which, according to my admittedly limited understanding, works by undergoing a chemical reaction when exposed to UV.

Re: Evidence stacks up for poisonous books containing toxic dyes

#25
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>physical rather than chemical properties The field of physical chemistry is going to blow your mind.

Ya, I'm definitely speaking in VERY broad strokes here because this isn't my area of expertise! I was just meaning that in comparison to what's called "chemical sunscreen" which, according to my admittedly limited understanding, works by undergoing a chemical reaction when exposed to UV.

I understand, I just couldn't help myself :)

Re: Evidence stacks up for poisonous books containing toxic dyes

#27

> "I find it fascinating to know what previous generations thought was safe, and then we learn, oh, actually, that might not have been a great idea to use these brilliant dyes," Weinstein-Webb says. Yep. William Morris was a divil for this, and refused to acknowledge the dangers well past when they were known. I wonder though - in terms of human potential and lives lost, do all of those examples put together come any…

I've been learning to use makeup recently and I've been surprised at how common it is to do things that I would instinctively avoid. (I realize this is probably all extremely pedestrian for people who grew up wearing makeup, but it was surprising to me). For example, it's fairly common to use eyeliner on the "waterline" of your eye where it will wash off into your eye over time. You need to reapply lipstick periodica…

I've worn makeup a few times... What amazed me is how gross it feels.

It might be the ADD or whatever, but I really detest the feeling of being caked in grease. I've often wondered what kind of damage its doing to people's skin to block gas exchange, clog pores, soak in weird chemicals, etc.

Gotta say though, it never occurred to me how much goop is going in people's eye holes, or how much lipstick they're ingesting. The inhalation I've thought about a lot... It's not easy to get shit out of your lungs once it goes in there. High hopes for earth-friendly (and lung friendly) glitter to become more of a thing.

All that said - I get it. We're incredibly shallow, generally, and I've seen in myself and others the difference a little makeup can make in how you're treated.

Re: Evidence stacks up for poisonous books containing toxic dyes

#28
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The name of the rose

From the novel by Umberto Eco. With a French director, Sean Connery, Christian Slater, Ron Perlman and more. Great movie.

Yep great movie. Was filmed in 'Kloster Eberbach' germany, not far from where I live, always worth a visit.

https://kloster-eberbach.de/

Re: Evidence stacks up for poisonous books containing toxic dyes

#29
this is overblown

copper acetoarsenite is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_green and is deadly, but still used by artists as a pigment today (though it's no longer used for things like wallpaper, clothing, and rat poison)

lead oxide is a mild concern; it's sweet, and back when it was the most common white pigment for painting houses, kids would chew on it. at that time there was a massive subclinical lead poisoning outbreak that probably resulted in an unprecedented decades-long crime wave in the usa, but that was probably more due to leaded gasoline than the paint. and the amount that can potentially flake off a book is even smaller than what kids got chewing on paint chips

but lead chromate is basically nontoxic under any normal exposure conditions. it's something you don't want to eat, though people commonly use it as a food dye; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_chromate says:

> Despite containing both lead and hexavalent chromium, lead chromate is not acutely lethal because of its very low solubility. The LD50 for rats is only 5,000 mg/kg. Lead chromate must be treated with great care in its manufacture, the main concerns being dust of the chromate precursor. (...) It is used (illegally) to enhance the color of certain spices, particularly turmeric,[8][9] particularly in Bangladesh. (...) Unlike other lead-based paint pigments, lead chromate is still widely used, especially in road marking paint.

and lead sulfide is pretty much completely nontoxic. there's no way to get lead poisoning from it. that's why egg whites are an antidote to lead poisoning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_sulfide#Safety

if you tried to murder someone with lead chromate and lead sulfide, you would fail. they would probably be unharmed

now, it's also possible the lead is in some other form that's more dangerous. and it's not clear that you'd put lead sulfide in a book on purpose; it's black, but carbon is cheaper, and making carbon black is both safer and easier. so maybe the excess lead is in some form that's of real concern. but the compounds they've identified are harmless, except for the green menace we already knew about

phys.org and the acs should be ashamed of having printed this baseless fearmongering

Re: Evidence stacks up for poisonous books containing toxic dyes

#30

It didn't seem to be mentioned in the article, but have these covers always been unsafe to handle, or has the problem got worse as the books get older and maybe the chemicals are more likely to leech out or be released as dust etc? If they've always been toxic, I'm kind of surprised that it wasn't noticed at the time. And presumably, there was a point when we stopped using these dyes. Was that because we knew the ris…

the copper acetoarsenite covers have always been unsafe to handle, while the others are completely safe
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