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We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

takes.jamesomalley.co.uk

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Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#161

Post by ryandrake »

manarth wrote: post #72
arnsholt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this context, it's not terribly hard to divine that they probably mean EPSG:4326 coordinates. I was going to comment that one of the ETRS89 UTM zones might be easier to work with, but on second thought the data almost certainly includes the DOMs if not the TOMs, so a global coordinate system is probably best.

The BAN provide fields `long` and `lat` which are WGS84, and also `x` and `y` which are coordinates expressed in "the appropriate local CRS" (without much elaboration on what that would be).

Not to mention that “latitude” and “longitude” cannot uniquely describe an address, regardless of the datum or ellipsoid. Maybe that is not the intent of storing the coordinates. Lat/Lon says nothing about floor number in a multi-story apartment.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#162

Post by DonHopkins »

Muromec wrote: post #37
TechTechTech wrote: post #30

For comparison, in the Netherlands all postcode data is open data, including detailed building outlines as well as almost all other related information. See https://app.pdok.nl/viewer for most datasets.

This creates a very special Dutch thing —- my neighborhood had the roads on the map before the map itself was updated to show landmass instead of the body of water.

I wonder if all the houses on disconnected long islands without roads in Vinkeveense Plassen have postal codes? It's hard to get a pizza delivered there.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2307079,4.9365182,1869m/data...

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#163

Post by dghf »

mywacaday wrote: post #152
NeoTar wrote: post #48

Some context, for people not located in the UK - A full British postcode typically aims to cover around 15 buildings (sometime a single building, sometimes a street of 50 houses). This is in contrast to many other postal code systems which cover relatively broad areas). Or to put it another way - UK - 2,643,732 codes, 1 code per 25 people, USA - 41,700 codes, 1 code per 8000 people, Germany - 8,200 codes, 1 code per…

You can put Ireland at the top of the list, one postcode for every address, every house has one, every apartment has one, every building has one, even some old ruins have one.

Yeah, but Irish posties mean you don't actually need them. You can just put stuff like this on the envelopes:

    Your man Henderson
    That boy with the glasses
    who is doing a PhD up
    here at Queen's in Belfast. 

    Buncrana
    Co. Donegal
    Ireland
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33581277

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#164

Post by wkat4242 »

NeoTar wrote: post #48

Some context, for people not located in the UK - A full British postcode typically aims to cover around 15 buildings (sometime a single building, sometimes a street of 50 houses). This is in contrast to many other postal code systems which cover relatively broad areas). Or to put it another way - UK - 2,643,732 codes, 1 code per 25 people, USA - 41,700 codes, 1 code per 8000 people, Germany - 8,200 codes, 1 code per…

And in Ireland 1 postcode (eircode) for 1 address. Very handy.

Having said that, they took their time, postcodes were only introduced a few years ago!

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#165

Post by wiredfool »

dmurray wrote: post #123
wiredfool wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ireland can have: Foo House Townland Large town somewhat nearby where the mail comes through but only tangentially near the actual house County Bar Where Townland is optional. There's a bank address in my town: PTSB Kennedy Road Navan Co Meath Kennedy Road is about 2 blocks long with ~ 30 shop fronts, and there are numbers on all but one of them.

> Where Townland is optional. Not really optional in most cases if you're not actually in the "large town somewhat nearby". I would say the large town part is more optional. You're not going to get post delivered to "Lakeview, Cavan, Co Cavan", but you should be ok with "Lakeview, Killeshandra, Co Cavan".

Kilshandra is a town, the townland for Lakeview would likely be "Portaliff or Townparks". Though to be somewhat fair, Lakeview in Kilshandra is really only unique vs things like "Pond View", "Lough View" or "Yet another body of water view".

In Meath, there's a House address near Garlow Cross where it's Foo House, Johnstown, Co Meath, but Johnstown is 7km away or so.

For those who have not been near there -- It's karst topography with basket of eggs hills where the water table is above ground in many of the valleys.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#166

Post by wiredfool »

NeoTar wrote: post #69
wiredfool wrote: post #56

Essentially the same deal in Ireland, with Eircodes. They were originally created as private dataset with ownership, and now you have to license access to it to use it. Eircodes are better than postcodes, in that there's 1 per building/address/apartment, however they're discontinuous, so adjacent buildings will have distinctly different eircodes. The article highlighted the difficulty of shopping centers and apartmen…

I was impressed when I first heard about the objectives of the Eircode system, but it seems the implementation is lacking.

The implementation was captured by a private party.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#167

Post by gabesullice »

Propelloni wrote: post #133
gabesullice wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cautionary example of how data meets reality… My address in France is listed in the BAN… but only to the granularity of my street number (e.g., 123 Main St.). Unfortunately, that number corresponds to at least 7 different structures, 5 of which are apartment buildings. Of those 5 buildings, each has multiple stairwells with their own door and no line of communication between them—they might as well be separate buil…

This sounds like bad design by the property developer and a sloppy building authority. The first is corroborated by the lack of unit numbers. Who does such a thing? The BAN actually only tracks down to the plot level, so I assume all your structures are on the same plot. From there on it is the building authorities job to check building plans and to enter the substructures into the cadastre, where they are usually le…

You could be right, but I think it's a little beside the point.

The challenge illustrated in the blog post is that it's practically impossible to build a really accurate address dataset since the real world is messy for the reasons you listed. Just like falsehoods programmers believe about names [1], you shouldn't put much faith in anything that claims to normalize addresses either.

As other commenters have said in the replies, my situation is not uncommon in Europe.

As they say, 'the map is not the territory.'

[1]: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-...

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#168

Post by MSFT_Edging »

It blows my mind how many public services have been privatized in the UK. It just feels like they're selling off the shoes they're standing in. When their railways got privatized, the service didn't improve, the price just ballooned.

Even in the states, the USPS has resisted privatization this far. For the love of god I hope it continues to. Protect our boys n girls in blue and tell your congressman you want postal banking.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#169

Post by shiandow »

NeoTar wrote: post #48

Some context, for people not located in the UK - A full British postcode typically aims to cover around 15 buildings (sometime a single building, sometimes a street of 50 houses). This is in contrast to many other postal code systems which cover relatively broad areas). Or to put it another way - UK - 2,643,732 codes, 1 code per 25 people, USA - 41,700 codes, 1 code per 8000 people, Germany - 8,200 codes, 1 code per…

For what it's worth in the Netherlands you have about 1 postal code per 21 addresses. Typically one code is a street or the even/odd half of the street.

Re: We need to liberate the Postcode Address File

#170

Post by coder543 »

NeoTar wrote: post #158
TomK32 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8,200 in Germany is way too low, and I'll add some fun facts. According to Wikipedia 30,000 of the theoretical 98,901 are currently in use. The number of people per postcode does vary a lot, from zero (no one lives in a company that has its own postcode) to none living in a demolished village of Billmuthausen (right on the inner-German border) or the two people living in a district that had no postcode until the prob…

Sorry - I was lazy and just asked ChatGPT for "how many German postal codes are there"!

FWIW, one of the only English-language sources I can find on Google claims around 8700 are in use: https://www.spotzi.com/en/data-catalog/categories/postal-cod...

Don’t know where this discrepancy is coming from, but ~8k to ~30k is quite a jump.

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