Live data from Hacker News

Why are Texas interchanges so tall?

practical.engineering

331–340 of 352 posts

Re: Why are Texas interchanges so tall?

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The people who like suburban density went ahead and made zoning codes to basically prevent building anything but sprawl" What, exactly, qualifies as "sprawl" to you? Houses with yards? How do you propose we build those to make them "non-sprawly?" Most of your statement is true, though: "People who like suburban density went ahead and made zoning codes to basically prevent building anything but" that density. So? Tho…

American sprawl at its core, I think, is driven by single family residential-only zoning with parking minimums. In combination these rules force everything to spread out. Single family homes can exist in non-sprawling configurations (e.g. old streetcar suburbs), but in combination with the other rules you wind up with businesses that are required to be far away from homes, to have large parking lots, and therefore be…

The purpose of many parking minimums is to protect the type of neighborhood you report living in. I lived in a pleasant neighborhood on Chicago's north side (Lakeview), which was a mix of SFH away from main thoroughfares and apartment buildings where they made sense. A real demonstration of what's possible, and (I think) what you're championing. I do believe it's possible. But it does require specificity and planning, instead of a blind, statewide trouncing of local laws (which CA is attempting).

My neighborhood was an example: A defunct theater behind our multi-unit house was sold to a developer, who built a massive residental building there. Our alderman had promised that new residential developments would be required to include parking with the sale of a unit. That was a lie.

As a result, many of the new residents decided that instead of buying a parking space in their building (where they WERE available), they'd just park on our streets... where we HAD to park because we had no other option. So now our standard of living took a huge hit, because we could no longer come home from work or the grocery store or other trips, and park and go into our homes. We had to circle the neighborhood in ever-larger radii for hours per week looking for parking. Real fun at 1 a.m... in the winter.

Re: Why are Texas interchanges so tall?

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American sprawl at its core, I think, is driven by single family residential-only zoning with parking minimums. In combination these rules force everything to spread out. Single family homes can exist in non-sprawling configurations (e.g. old streetcar suburbs), but in combination with the other rules you wind up with businesses that are required to be far away from homes, to have large parking lots, and therefore be…

The purpose of many parking minimums is to protect the type of neighborhood you report living in. I lived in a pleasant neighborhood on Chicago's north side (Lakeview), which was a mix of SFH away from main thoroughfares and apartment buildings where they made sense. A real demonstration of what's possible, and (I think) what you're championing. I do believe it's possible. But it does require specificity and planning…

In Chicago at least, parking minimums were generally enacted as a package of policies to keep Black and Latino families out of neighborhoods. The Supreme Court struck down explicit racial zoning in 1917, which drove the creation of single-family zoning. Properties in Chicago were further "protected" by racial covenants, contractually preventing them from being sold to Black families. Those covenants were struck down in 1947. Immediately thereafter, Harland Bartholomew and his acolytes sold municipalities in Chicagoland (and around the country) on a package of parking minimums, setback requirements, and minimum lot sizes, all designed to address the prevailing concern at the time: that large single-family houses would be covertly converted into two-flats and rented to Black families.

Re: Why are Texas interchanges so tall?

#333
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making the argument that Americans would consider it inhumane to live in Swiss apartments because they are too small?

I was being hyperbolic, but yes, I think they would consider them too small and too old. Many would simply be illegal in the US due to their lack of amenities.

Sorry, but the Swiss are excellent builders. I would guess there is a big cultural difference between where Americans and Europeans(in general) spend their days. I would guess Americans spend their days at home watching television while Swiss in particular are more outdoorsy and do a lot more activities.

I don't know why you think there are fewer amenities here than in the US. What specific amenities do you think are lacking?

a 15 minute walk from me there are public baths(free, including the amazing Limmat river with crystal clear water), hiking(free), amazing bars, night clubs and restaurants.

Re: Why are Texas interchanges so tall?

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whether that needs to be the case. By combining train and car you can usually end up faster and cheaper if done well as trains won't be stuck in traffic and commuter trains can reliably run at 120-160km/h. See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41309489 for examples and details on how to solve this long-term.

Once again it kind of comes back to the density. Without the density, you'll end up with a lot of stations to try and make the line useful to people. With lots of stations, you're not realistically going 120-160km/h average speeds. These DART LRV trains do >100km/h peak speeds. But in the end if you halved the stations you'd really crush the ridership because there's just not enough stuff or people at any particular…

> Without the density, you'll end up with a lot of stations to try and make the line useful to people. With lots of stations, you're not realistically going 120-160km/h average speeds.

> But in the end if you halved the stations you'd really crush the ridership because there's just not enough stuff or people at any particular station.

Of course there's enough people left.

First you build train stations near destinations. That's business parks, universities, airports, downtown areas, malls. Then you build train stations with lots of spacing into the suburbs so you can still hit peak speeds between them.

Typical station spacing depends on train speeds, but you can estimate with: 50km/h at 500m spacing, 90km/h for 2km spacing, 120km/h at 5km spacing, 160km/h at 10km spacing.

So you'll want to have 5km-10km spacing between the stations. That's not close enough for walking. But you can set up free parking at the station for anyone with a train ticket. At the same time you'll set up congestion charging for the destinations with stations.

Now the fastest and cheapest way to travel to these dense areas is to drive to the nearest station, park your car, and take the train. For the rest of the city the car remains the fastest option.

Nonetheless, at 2-5km average distance to the nearest station cycling becomes more viable, which primarily benefits teenagers and students.

Later on you can improve upon this by:

· creating bus and tram lines with cross-connections between the larger train stations to serve as distributor lines and connect more people

· changing the minimum setbacks for properties near the bus and tram lines to allow semi-detached and terraced housing. This makes cheaper housing available, increases density, makes transit more viable and still keeps the suburban lifestyle

· changing the zoning near the station to develop 5-over-1s, with 1 level of businesses, 5 levels of apartments and an underground parking garage. This would allow creating something resembling the "main streets" of foregone eras.

Overall you can make these changes over the span of a generation. This is how cities grew during the industrialization in the first place (including in the US) and how european cities have recovered from the post-war car-centric urban design which had destroyed more cities than the war.

Re: Why are Texas interchanges so tall?

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again it kind of comes back to the density. Without the density, you'll end up with a lot of stations to try and make the line useful to people. With lots of stations, you're not realistically going 120-160km/h average speeds. These DART LRV trains do >100km/h peak speeds. But in the end if you halved the stations you'd really crush the ridership because there's just not enough stuff or people at any particular…

> Without the density, you'll end up with a lot of stations to try and make the line useful to people. With lots of stations, you're not realistically going 120-160km/h average speeds. > But in the end if you halved the stations you'd really crush the ridership because there's just not enough stuff or people at any particular station. Of course there's enough people left. First you build train stations near destinati…

Once again you're telling me how it should be instead of looking at the realities of what is.

Take a look at the route for the Red/Orange lines on DART. Tell me which stations get the axe to make that spacing. Do we kill Downtown Plano or Cityline? Do we kill the stop with the easy bus transfer to the Richardson library and city hall? Do we kill the station next to the massive apartment complexes and the concert hall and office park at Galatyn? Or all the mixed use at Spring Valley? Do people lose access to the hospital and medical facilities near Forest Ln? No more shopping at all the stuff at the Shops at Park Lane and NorthPark mall? Do SMU students lose access to the network by taking away Lovers Ln? Forget all the mixed use at Mockingbird? Tell me, who gets the axe? And you really think we're going to keep ridership up if we eliminate the stop at the hospital or eliminate half the apartment complexes on the path?

The only easy stops I see to eliminate are the ones downtown where it's acting like a streetcar. There were plans for a "D2" project to move these lines underground and change the number of stops.

And all of this is also still assuming there is the bus connections to take you East/West, because there's still so much you miss at each stop on just the train alignment a few miles either direction.

Re: Why are Texas interchanges so tall?

#336
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean hundreds if commuter rail lines because the population isn't centered around dense points that make rail useful. We're in a catch 22 trap that will cost trillions and likely a century to get out of.

What I'd do is identify existing locations of denser development. That can be old downtown areas, universities, airports, old business parks, etc. Even Texas has those. We've actually had similar issues in many post-war suburbs in Germany when trying to convert them to transit in recent years. The solution isn't to remove all driving, just driving in areas with too much traffic. So park & ride concepts were created.…

"This model is already profitable (!), but you can expand further."

How many years is the break even point before profit is generated charging riders even 100$ per trip?

Some of these highspeed rail projects proposed across the USA have a 1-2000 year break-even excluding maintenance over 2000 years @ 100$/rider/trip

Re: Why are Texas interchanges so tall?

#337
post #82
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello, texan here. No busses would do nothing for these people... pretty much the entire DFW area is surrounded by huge areas of low density suburbs. The busineses and locations these people are going to covers hundreds of square miles. Car culture builds car cities. Once you have a car city it's nearly impossible to fix it... it's too big and expensive and low density to fix.

Park + ride

Vel0city's reply kind of covers why this doesn't work, but I'll expound on it.

Where does the bus go? If you have dense city cores with business, commercial, and shopping it makes sense.

Living near Austin, I could take a bus to a place like the domain and have shaded walkways where I could walk to most shops without dying of heat stroke.

If I'm not going to the domain, I'm looking at businesses with huge parking lots strung along stroads. Walking from the bus drop off to a store might just kill you on a day like yesterday where it was 108F, and parking lot temps are closer to 130F.

Also getting to where you want to go over the huge spread out cities may involve waiting for 5 or 6 different busses.

And then hopefully your park and ride is being watched and you're windows aren't broken out.

Re: Why are Texas interchanges so tall?

#338
post #337
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Park + ride

Vel0city's reply kind of covers why this doesn't work, but I'll expound on it. Where does the bus go? If you have dense city cores with business, commercial, and shopping it makes sense. Living near Austin, I could take a bus to a place like the domain and have shaded walkways where I could walk to most shops without dying of heat stroke. If I'm not going to the domain, I'm looking at businesses with huge parking lot…

Admittedly, P+R is only a (kind of) solution for people of suburbia commuting into the office towers etc of the city. Pretty common scenario around the globe, but maybe not in Texas. Escooters are nice to cover the last mile.

Re: Why are Texas interchanges so tall?

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Potentially a 30 minute wait for the next train at peak times. See, that's already an issue. Even in small European cities, you'd expect the trains at peak time to arrive every 5min, in larger cities even every 1-2min A train every 30min is what I'd consider "3am on easter sunday" level of service, not peak service. Sure, right now there's not enough demand for that. But as they say, if you build it they'll come.

I agree, the service level on that train is pretty bad especially for peak. Hopefully they'll be convinced to run it more. But change that wait, do the math, and compare it to the drive time again. Ok, we shaved a 15 minute average wait to 2 minutes or so. 13 minutes saved, awesome. We're still comparing a well over an hour public transit trip to a 30 minute drive on the tollways. In the end you'll need to convince p…

Just to throw something else into the mix: the Orange Line DART is at-grade in several areas (and around Las Colinas particularly). So you can't increase frequency too much without affecting traffic.

My in-laws live in Irving, near the Ritz (ex-Four Seasons). The only thing they would ever consider using DART for would be the Texas State Fair (including the UT/OU game), and only because the parking is so expensive and so far away if you drive down there that the time penalty is much smaller.

Then you have the facts on the ground that probably are older than DART: the North Lake College station is a perfect example of bad transit design, as the station is at the edge of the property while the buildings are centered. You could just as easily (with perfect foreknowledge) have put the buildings right next to the station and used the back of the property for parking lots, which adds almost no time to driving but makes transit much more appealing (as it is, those who disembark there have to walk across the entire parking lot to get to the school).

Even worse, the University of Dallas station that has almost no pedestrian access at all. It would take ten minutes walking just to get to the other side of the highway because of the convoluted route you would have to take.

Traffic has to be really bad before public transit with a lot of stops is faster than door-to-door in a car, assuming there's parking at the other end.

You can do many things to make cities more transit-friendly, pedestrian-friendly, bike-friendly. But drivers aren't epsilon-minus semi-morons, and while a car in central Paris or Amsterdam is a liability, in most of Dallas it's at best a minor inconvenience to find parking. And there's absolutely nothing that can ever beat the convenience of a private conveyance. There's a reason really rich people fly private. It goes where you want, when you want.

I took my wife to the airport the other day. There is no public transit that goes to our local airport; you have no choice but to get in a private car or taxi unless you've got serious stamina for walking on fully-exposed public roads (no shade, no rain shield) with no sidewalks and 60+ mph (100 km/h) traffic for tens of miles. On the plus side (for the passenger), I dropped her off more or less right outside the check-in counter and security. She didn't spend more than a minute or two, tops, for all her indoor walking around to the gate.

Re: Why are Texas interchanges so tall?

#340
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's difficult for Europeans to grasp the size of the US. Texas alone is twice the size of Germany - which is really crazy.

Why would that be difficult?

An intuitive grasp of the size of the US eludes a lot of Americans, let alone a lot of Europeans.

When an American says, "that is a three-day drive", they don't mean it will take three days of six hours a day with breaks every hour or two. They mean it will take three days of driving 12+ hours a day with 10-minute breaks every three or four hours. NY to LA is around 41 hours of actual driving per Google. So three consecutive 14-hour days just in the car, not counting getting a hotel room along the way, eating, using the bathroom, showering...

Post reply on HN