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X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

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451–460 of 474 posts

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#451

Good. The richest man in the world doesn't get to be above the law on account of being rich. If you own a company, that comes with responsibility and if you shirk those responsibilities the law will come for you; as it should.

Consider that the commission is also pushing US companies to avoid Ireland.

it's called the European Union for a reason. You screw around too much with one country and you are basically locking youself out of half the western population or more. Maybe some trillionaires will try this hand, but I don't think you become a trillionaire only by appealing to Americans.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#452
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushing US companies that don’t follow local laws to not operate there? Something tells me they’d be okay with that.

If you can't fire employees who refuse to perform at the level required or show a commitment for that then it was very right to be fired. The staff member had a choice, agree to an increased level of commitment or decline, he obviously declined. If companies can't decide who stays on or not, then definitely they would be more hesitant to invest / movel locations to Ireland. This will take time and certainly one of th…

>who refuse to perform at the level required or show a commitment for

I know it's paywalled, but could you at least take the time to find an archieve and read the article if you're going to make such a claim? It's usually the top comment.

>Rooney was one of thousands of Twitter employees sent an email by Musk requiring them to pledge to stay with the company, working long hours at “high intensity” during its transformation, or to accept a buyout. Staff were given a day to click “yes” to agree to unspecified employment terms.

Doesn't sound like performance issues. Sounds like "I have altered the deal, pray I do not alter it further"

>If companies can't decide who stays on or not, then definitely they would be more hesitant to invest / movel locations to Ireland.

Good. These are employees, not contractors/consultants. You want a short term expert solution, hire a consultant with their much higher hourly rates. You don't want culpability for employees but need labor (short or long term, but not forever), hire a contractor.

Companies seem to forget what "careers are", and why once upon a time they helped to develop them.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that the commission is also pushing US companies to avoid Ireland.

it's called the European Union for a reason. You screw around too much with one country and you are basically locking youself out of half the western population or more. Maybe some trillionaires will try this hand, but I don't think you become a trillionaire only by appealing to Americans.

The agency which made the ruling is called the Ireland’s Workplace Relations Commission. While I assume they do not make decisions for the European Union, I could be wrong.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#454
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not actually unlimited. In fact, by not providing a fixed amount, and calling it unlimited, it lets managers put peer pressure onto people into taking less vacations than if they'd made a fixed amount!

I’ve experienced unlimited PTO myself and have yet to see any kind of pressure. YMMV obviously but it’s not as universal as people say it is.

As have I. When I told my manager I wanted to use my unlimited paid time off to work half-days for the rest of the year ... the look I got was my answer. No.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All markets are a bit uncompetitive Oh sure, but there's a vast difference between "people make $1000 more and landlords take $0.05 on the dollar" and "people make $1000 more and landlords take $0.95 on the dollar". Profit margins are also not inherently determined by wages in some other sector. If a bag clip costs $1 and $0.25 of that is profit and $0.75 is cost of labor, the profit margin clearly isn't zero. If n…

The way I usually phrase the problem here is that the market strives to push average disposable income to zero. Average here means that there will be people with various degree of spending money surplus (the rich) and those not able to afford even the essentials (the poor). This is a stable(ish) state, even as people move up and down the wealth ladder. However, when suddenly a large chunk of population gets extra dis…

> However, when suddenly a large chunk of population gets extra disposable income - say a hypothetical UBI experiment (or not so hypothetical universal or near-universal social handouts), or as two-income household model gains popularity in a country, or (indirectly) some innovation creates a new, widely-applicable efficiency - then the market absolutely swoops in and eats all the average surplus.

My argument is that this is not a feature of markets but rather government action.

The rise of two-income households is a great example. Historically only the husband worked for money and the wife would do domestic work like washing clothes etc. Now the washing machine washes the clothes, which takes 15 minutes of human labor instead of four hours, and the labor is then spent working a job that does something else. Meanwhile the family has more money, which allows them to buy those same additional products and service now being provided.

And yet this hasn't happened. The surplus went somewhere else. You already know where:

> You mention some regulatory overhead being eliminated, but more often than not, a surplus of disposable income enables passing further regulatory requirements that improve (or at least purport to) safety or quality of products and services

It "enables" that to happen, but we as a populace are not actually required to do that. And when we do, the overhead eats the surplus. So maybe we shouldn't?

> If I parse this correctly, then the latter is definitely the case. Real estate is the prime force that eats all surplus disposable income.

Oh, absolutely. This is why uncompetitive markets are a problem.

Real estate is an unusual case, because the really isn't anyone with a monopoly on real estate. The supply constraint comes directly from the government through zoning rules. We effectively have a cartel whose board of directors is the zoning board.

In a free market, if wages go up, people who had been living with their parents will want to get their own place, so they would use the extra money they're making to do that, and the extra money would pay construction companies to build more housing. But if that's prohibited by law then the extra money only goes to bid up the price of existing housing, people don't get housing who didn't have it before because new housing is not created, and the money just goes to landlords.

That is an independent problem that we badly need to solve, because it isn't just a problem when people make more money. If you get more benefits, the same thing happens. If companies all start providing free daycare, people save the money they'd been using to pay for daycare, they want to use the money to get their own place, rents go up. If prices go down, the same thing happens. Computers get cheaper, you can get a suitable one for $400 instead of $2000, landlords take most of the difference. This needs to be fixed or it eats any surplus that would otherwise go to the middle class. It's a huge problem, but it's a solvable problem. Build more housing.

And either way it doesn't affect whether you should prefer cash or "benefits" as compensation, because when a market with an artificial supply constraint is eating the bulk of any surplus, it would just as well eat the surplus created by benefits too. At which point we're back to "money is better than arbitrary stuff" because turning money into stuff you want has lower deadweight friction losses than turning stuff you want less into stuff you want more.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. The higher wages in the US are not related to labour protections. They are related to vastly higher wages in tech because of big corps pushing up those wages to have the best of the best working for them. Proof is simple: Since a lot of low paying jobs in the US have no labour protections. Or look at what Tesla does in Texas, with the "unprotected" third party companies that don't have labour protect…

> Proof is simple: Since a lot of low paying jobs in the US have no labour protections. That doesn't follow. The low paying jobs exist because the value to the employer of hiring someone exceeds the low pay. For those jobs, if the employer is required to provide paid vacation etc. then it can push the cost of hiring someone over the cost of offshoring the job or automating it, so the alternative then isn't high pay v…

You're totally missing the point. Tesla set their factory and the poorest area in Texas. They wanted worker protections because they were scared to be exploited by a big corporation.

Here's the reality:

https://fortune.com/2022/11/15/tesla-texas-gigafactory-const...

> ‘I’m going to die in this factory’: Tesla Texas gigafactory construction workers are suing over wage theft and dangerous conditions

But sure...

> They have fewer employee benefits, but in return contractors generally get higher hourly wages. One way or another they have to convince the worker to work for them instead of somebody else.

"generally"

> Other whistleblowers will complain that they were either not paid at all for their work, or were not given proper overtime compensation. Some who sacrificed their time to work over Thanksgiving say that they were never paid the promised double wage, according to the case referral.

Next time. Please come with sources. Because I couldn't find any credible sources for your claims...

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#457
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are employees actually at the level of indentured servants (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties) no, it's actually the polar opposite of that. either party is free to end the relationship at any time. there is essentially what is a long term contract (may not be called a contract), but one which either of the two parties can terminate. it's halfway between being a european style employee and b…

An interesting facet of a universal healthcare system is how much it could increase competition due to relieving healthcare costs for SMBs and for manufacturing industries like automotive by removing their healthcare obligations. You actually net increase the ability of people to work for themselves. Healthcare is often cited as one of the primarily reasons people don’t take the step to found their own business. Not…

Considering the salaries of software engineers healthcare costs in the US are way cheaper than most EU countries. Also, you don't have to wait months to see a doctor.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unemployment insurance is a form of insurance in US that pays you if you lose your job due to layoffs and other conditions. It is paid by you so it is not “welfare.” It is managed by each state independently and has some rules. For example, if you lose you job today and “don’t claim” unemployment insurance for two weeks, those two weeks are not paid out to you (this is in Texas). Every week, you must show that you ar…

At least in my state, the employee does not pay unemployment insurance tax, but the amount the employer pays is usually reported on the paystub. That is, if you are paid $85,000 salary it won't be reduced by the unemployment tax. However, some economists treat all payroll taxes as effectively paid by the employee out of "total compensation".

Same in my state.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#459
post #56
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From everything I read, in US, in general, outside of specific list of protected reasons, or a contract specifically describing conditions for contact termination, one can be fired at any time. This works both ways - employee can quit any time too. I wouldn't be surprised musk just applied the same logic worldwide and let lawyers deal with consequences

"This works both ways - employee can quit any time too." I think employees have been allowed to quit at any time since the early 20th century in most western countries. Of course there is a probationary period involved, but it's nothing like earlier times when police would possibly come and take you to your place of work, or it was illegal to be unemployed in several jurisdictions up to 20th century (e.g. USSR) etc.…

In most EU countries employees have to give a mandatory notice if they plan on quitting. In the UK it goes up to 12 weeks advance notice.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#460
post #67
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, and the peace of mind of not being fired at-will when economic times aren’t so good.

this also means companies are much more hesitant to hire

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