Earlier quoted context omitted.
Epictetus, a Stoic philosopher and proponent of Aristotelian virtue ethics, was literally a slave. Some ideas, particularly the best ones, aren't subject to class politics.
> Epictetus, a Stoic philosopher and proponent of Aristotelian virtue ethics, was literally a slave. Some ideas, particularly the best ones, aren't subject to class politics. While correct, it should be noted that he was only a slave during his youth (freed around the age of 18 when Nero died) and was a slave to the secretary of Nero, in other words had a personal connection to Imperial power.
Aristotle – How to live a good life
171–180 of 183 posts
Re: Aristotle – How to live a good life
#172> Aristotle says that humans have a capacity to be good, but it is up to us to develop our character. This is best achieved through study and habit. Cool. So, then I just draw the rest of the owl? I have no idea where to begin to develop my character.
Well, you have decisions right in front of you. Character is made through action.
Re: Aristotle – How to live a good life
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not the parent, but as I understand it the post is saying that morality is not defined by outcome, but rather by consistency of the object's purpose. A sentient chair choosing to fall apart when you sit on it is being "immoral", opposed to its purpose. > I'd argue that Scholasticism, that is, the marriage of Middle-Ages Christianity to the truthy-sounding gobbledygook of Aristotle, set the case for the moral authorit…
a) Yeah, that's fair. Everything I know about Eastern and Russian Orthodoxy could fill 2 post-it notes, if I write big. b) It is dismissive, because Aristotle's solutions should be dismissed. He and Plato before him are very good at identifying problems, but then they both present quasi-mystical solutions to those problems. The grandparent talks at length about how materialism (that is, that we are made of matter and…
Your definition of materialism is not what the term commonly means. Clearly we're made of matter and have material concerns; everybody is a materialist under that definition. Materialism-as-commonly-defined goes much further and says that matter, and therefore material concerns, are all there is. Quite different.
The telos is nothing mythical or hooey. It's utterly anodyne: it's what a thing does, or how a thing acts. The telos of an acorn is to grow into an oak tree. The telos of water (one of them) is to dissolve salt. We know this because if you put salt in water, the water dissolves it; it doesn't turn it into sugar. Dissolving salt is what water does. The fact that we could describe the chemistry of how this happens in far more detail doesn't undermine the point. Nor does the fact that water has more than one telos. And if you say this is trivial, I almost agree with you: it's supposed to be.
Materialism is objectionable (as it pertains to this discussion) because it denies the telos, by saying that everything can be defined in terms of matter, and nothing else. This is a mistake: the telos cannot be reduced to matter. "What a thing does" is not the same as "what a thing is made of". Even if you want to say that the former is entirely caused by the latter -- which I would not entirely disagree with, though I'd want to clarify -- it does not follow that the former is the latter.
Human beings, like everything else, have a telos, which is happiness.* Happiness in this context doesn't mean an emotion, in the way that most people mean it. It doesn't mean delight, pleasure or even joy, although all of these result from it. It encompasses notions such as flourishing, or fulfillment, or beatitude, or rest, and still can't be reduced to any of these. A proper discussion of it would take too long. But everybody wants to be happy.
Unlike acorns and water, we can choose whether or not we move towards our telos. An acorn may fail to grow into an oak tree, but it obviously has never has a choice in whether it does so. If an acorn is crushed, it probably won't grow into an oak tree, and is to this extent a bad acorn. By contrast, a human being can choose his actions: he can choose actions that tend towards his telos, or that tend away from his telos. A deliberate action is good to the extent that it brings about our telos (which is happiness), and bad to the extent that it fails to do so. This is both 'morally good', and good in the more general sense, in that sense that an acorn or even a car is good.
The great grandparent's point was that if you undermine telos, you undermine any objective basis for morality. And this is true. It isn't even limited to materialism. If someone says we must follow God's commands, he can't explain without telos why we must do so, though he may describe incentives for our doing so. Morality would still be absurd.
That's what I mean when I say "truthy-sounding". It seems to wrap things in a nice neat little box, it certainly sounds profound, until you really look at it and realize, oh no, that didn't solve anything.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Nobody is saying "we know about telos now, we don't need to investigate anything else". Least of all Aristotle! Nothing in the notion of telos undermines the need for empirical investigation. If you can show me a line of Aristotle that even hints at this idea, I'd love to see it.
* I take some issue with the grandparent's definition of happiness, but I think we'd both agree that happiness is humanity's telos
Re: Aristotle – How to live a good life
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
Statements that end in "nothing more" are almost always incorrect. The only way one could make such a statement with total certitude would be to be omniscient, as the phrase implies an exhaustive understanding of all possible facts.
Yeah because Rembrandt had all the facts on Aristotle. Spitting image of the chap that painting.
Re: Aristotle – How to live a good life
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, you have decisions right in front of you. Character is made through action.
What actions are you or have you taken to improve your character?
Do what you should do.
Many or most of our choices that matter are that simple, but we work really hard to confuse ourselves, to justify and rationalize the choice we want, because that's what we want.
If our choices are difficult because it really is honestly difficult to tell what the right thing is, then it's not a moral flaw to be mistaken.
Re: Aristotle – How to live a good life
#176I just really liked this. There’s a lot of wisdom in Aristotle even if you don’t accept his entire system. For example, in his politics he says mechanics are not capable of practicing virtue. An interesting claim!
He may well mean a mechanic qua mechanic is not capable or practising virtue -- not a mechanic qua human being. The ancients tended to predicate formally where we predicate materially. When they said 'a mechanic can't practise virtue', they didn't mean every man who is a mechanic, which is what we would mean. They meant every mechanic in so far as he is a mechanic. At least this is the tendency -- I don't know if it…
Re: Aristotle – How to live a good life
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
What actions are you or have you taken to improve your character?
All those times you are confronted with choices that boil down to "I should do this, but I want to do that..." Do what you should do. Many or most of our choices that matter are that simple, but we work really hard to confuse ourselves, to justify and rationalize the choice we want, because that's what we want. If our choices are difficult because it really is honestly difficult to tell what the right thing is, then…
Re: Aristotle – How to live a good life
#178Re: Aristotle – How to live a good life
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, you have decisions right in front of you. Character is made through action.
What actions are you or have you taken to improve your character?
Character is not purely an internal thing, but rather something that is built through your interactions in your environment, especially with people.
A better character is built by doing things that are challenging.
Re: Aristotle – How to live a good life
#180It seems to me that this either underemphasizes the importance of happiness or assumes that happiness will be an inevitable byproduct of virtue; even if we define happiness very broadly to include things like "satisfaction" or a "sense of purpose". Part of me suspects that may be because Aristotle was likely upper class and therefore already had success and/or wealth. I'm not sure that I think his arguments work for…