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Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

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Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s dead serious. Uber got its start by flouting taxi rules. By the time the backlash started uber/lyft were too popular for governments to shut down so instead most governments created an awkward different category for them, so there’s at least some regulation applying to them. If Uber had tried to work thru the regulation they would have never gotten off the ground or have been as loved by users. Taxis in many way…

Not really. Taxi medallions are required to let you pick up someone else that hails you on the street. It is not required for a drive scheduled elsewhere like over the phone or the Internet. They weren't breaking laws, at least in the US. Most of the regulations applied to Uber were new regulations introduced after their ride to popularity, often crafted with the express purpose of curbing Lyft and Uber.

> Not really. Taxi medallions are required to let you pick up someone else that hails you on the street. It is not required for a drive scheduled elsewhere like over the phone or the Internet. They weren't breaking laws, at least in the US.

Maybe not in the US, but Uber was (at one point) banned in multiple locations in (at least) Europe because they flagrantly ignoring existing laws.

In some locations, like Netherlands, Uber was fined and told it was illegal, but continued service anyway up until their offices were raided, then they finally shut down.

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#142
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about slave labor? Definitely more profitable than paying employees. Is the law broken here, too?

You don't need slave labor to run a business.

Plenty of people have made that argument for a long time. They make it to this very day - "if we have to pay a living wage (or comply with safety regulations, or give benefits, or....) we'll go out of business!"

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#143
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schmidt oversaw lots of “stealing” at Google, from Google Books (Author’s Guild), to Image Search (e.g. Perfect10 etc, before even Getty), the French press .. all before Viacom vs Youtube and others. Schmidt was also notably part of the tech no-poach / wage suppression scheme ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust... ). He knows very well the spectrum of stealing and liability. In this talk he…

>Schmidt oversaw lots of “stealing” at Google, from Google Books (Author’s Guild), to Image Search (e.g. Perfect10 etc, before even Getty), the French press .. all before Viacom vs Youtube and others. At least for Author’s Guild and Perfect10, google successfully argued fair use and therefore it wasn't really "stealing". I'm too lazy to research the other cases. Despite this, you're seemingly displeased at google's b…

Legality is the lowest bar of ethical behavior.

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People did get in trouble for pirating content. That you don't know any of them personally is irrelevant. I don't personally know anyone who got radiation poisoning, so I suppose radiation is not toxic? Anyway, you downloading torrents is in no way "hammering out a gray area". It's just you being a small fish and slipping under the radar. The area is just as gray as before. Try to do something significant with the pi…

> Try to do something significant with the pirated content, as the AI startups do, and you'll immediately get trouble. No they won't. 80% of the people I meet at tech events either have an AI startup or are working at one. Basically all of them are doing legally questionable stuff, when it comes to copyright law. Anyone who has ever trained a model, or finetuned a model, is likely using other people's data. This is u…

> Anyone who has ever trained a model, or finetuned a model, is likely using other people's data. This is universal. It is almost everyone.

Citation needed.

The whole reason there's no legal trouble is that it cannot be proved conclusively that they used copyrighted data for training.

"when the CTO of OpenAI is asked if Sora was trained on YouTube videos, she says “actually I’m not sure” and refuses to discuss all further questions about the training data". Why do you think she's denying the obvious?

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#146
post #131

It’s interesting to see so many supposedly ‘hackers’ take the state of Intellectual “Property” laws that are from a different era (and are “purchased” by old incumbents too by the way) as gospel and object to strategies to deal with them for the long term. Schmidt is very pragmatic simply predicting something like that is inevitable and probably the right strategy is to build your AI thing and bet/try that something…

I've skimmed the comments, but I didn't see any passionate advocacy for copyright laws. If there's rules we all need to comply with, it can be upsetting to see others proudly not do it and get away with it because they're rich.

That has little to do with whether the rules were sound in the first place. It's more about fairness. And I've found "hackers" to be nothing if not fair - in a "chaotic good" way perhaps.

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google torrent lawsuits. Tens of thousands of people have had their lives ruined due to torrent use. Claiming that there's anything illegal about adblockers is a real stretch, although I can definitely believe that they will eventually be outlawed either by statute or through some torturous legal argument agreed to by corrupt judges.

> Tens of thousands of people have had their lives ruined due to torrent use. That is a tiny fraction of the number of people who did it. There are companies that got destroyed due to lawsuits as well, I wouldn't say lawsuits are less of an issue for companies than people, significant lawsuits are very rare in either case. > Claiming that there's anything illegal about adblockers is a real stretch It is legally quest…

So in which sense was it "hammered out"? Since not many people got in trouble for it, is it now legal to torrent copyrighted content, and to block ads?

If you're claiming it's still legally questionable, then it was not "hammered out" at all, was it?

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try to do something significant with the pirated content, as the AI startups do, and you'll immediately get trouble. No they won't. 80% of the people I meet at tech events either have an AI startup or are working at one. Basically all of them are doing legally questionable stuff, when it comes to copyright law. Anyone who has ever trained a model, or finetuned a model, is likely using other people's data. This is u…

> Anyone who has ever trained a model, or finetuned a model, is likely using other people's data. This is universal. It is almost everyone. Citation needed. The whole reason there's no legal trouble is that it cannot be proved conclusively that they used copyrighted data for training. "when the CTO of OpenAI is asked if Sora was trained on YouTube videos, she says “actually I’m not sure” and refuses to discuss all fu…

Just look around at all the AI companies that are doing this, dude.

Its a lot of people.

So the point stands, a large number of people are doing this.

Meaning that, yes a lot of people are getting away with this, and only like 4 companies are being sued.

This means that the point about people immediately getting in trouble is wrong, given that a lot of people are doing this.

Can you directly address this point, instead of giving a 2 word response that doesn't really address the point, and instead tries to attack the argument on a technicality because I didn't include a 20 page research paper in my social media comment?

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who has ever trained a model, or finetuned a model, is likely using other people's data. This is universal. It is almost everyone. Citation needed. The whole reason there's no legal trouble is that it cannot be proved conclusively that they used copyrighted data for training. "when the CTO of OpenAI is asked if Sora was trained on YouTube videos, she says “actually I’m not sure” and refuses to discuss all fu…

Just look around at all the AI companies that are doing this, dude. Its a lot of people. So the point stands, a large number of people are doing this. Meaning that, yes a lot of people are getting away with this, and only like 4 companies are being sued. This means that the point about people immediately getting in trouble is wrong, given that a lot of people are doing this. Can you directly address this point, inste…

Honestly I'm having a really hard time arguing that regular joes are not on the same footing with megacorps as related to "legal gray areas". It's like asking me to prove the sky is blue. Whereas of course, anything you claim, is "obvious, just look around dude".

What's the claim here, that now torrenting is officially legal? People have been torrenting, there's no consequences, it's been hammered out, now it's a-ok?

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#150
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about slave labor? Definitely more profitable than paying employees. Is the law broken here, too?

You don't need slave labor to run a business.

You can also run a business without being unethical
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