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Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

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Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#51
Yes we do. Why? Because the old people running our country have not figured out that digital money is money even though most spending is done using digital money.

Because they love corporate profits more than citizen wallets, they restrict the US Mint to paper money instead of implementing a Federal payment system to support citizen use of digital money.

Consequently, those companies effectively implement a regressive sales tax of around 3-4%.

We should all have a federal debit card with zero processing fees that attaches to our bank accounts and the banks should be mandated to charge zero for federal debit card withdrawals.

Alternately, a law should be passed that mandates these big companies to charge no processing fee for debit cards. If they can't make profits that are sufficiently obscene on credit card fees, tough luck. While at it, make a federal card processing function that is entirely funded by tax, just like paper money.

It's an insane part of our government that it is impossible to modernize anything that touches the constitutional responsibilities.

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#52
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iDEAL in the Netherlands is an instant credit from your account directly into the receivers. The KYC part has already been handled by your bank.

So basically, if you use that to buy something, you have no post-purchase protections from the payment provider itself (chargebacks, extended warranties, price protections, etc.?) like the kind credit cards will often provide?

Reducing charge-backs in another reason Chip & PIN was promoted by the banks.

With a signature the merchant is responsible for fraud. They are supposed to check the buyers signature against the one written on the back of the credit/debit card or cheque book. If the signatures don't match the merchant should decline the sale.

With Chip & PIN - a code only the card owner should know - the responsibility has been shifted away from the seller over to the buyer. The banks always say "NEVER share your PIN code with anybody. It's for you only"

Claiming a charge-back is much harder if YOU are the one who authorised the transaction by entering a code only YOU should know.

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#53
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yes it is all totally necessary Highlighting because it's important. We recently got a totally free and open payments system, probably hundreds of them in fact, and they're a disaster. All the inequity and risk that any money system inherently possesses, with zero protections for anyone involved and zero recourse if you're robbed blind, unless of course you're wealthy in which case the people actually in charge…

By which I understand you to mean the cryptocurrency efforts, right? Man. That whole turn-of-the-2020s, peak-COVID period seems like such a collective fever dream in retrospect.

Oh yeah.

And I mean, I'd agree if there weren't still a substantial community of people swearing up and down that it was the future, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically, if you use that to buy something, you have no post-purchase protections from the payment provider itself (chargebacks, extended warranties, price protections, etc.?) like the kind credit cards will often provide?

I never needed any of these things in the EEA When I wasn't happy with a product, I either used the warranty or (mandatory) 14-day return option depending on the reason why the product wasn't conforming expectations Perhaps warranty extras are more relevant outside of the EU where warranty laws may be less strict? How even does a payment system do warranty, it knows nothing of the product? And what is price protectio…

> where warranty laws may be less strict?

These protections don’t really exist in the US. The only thing American consumers can really use as leverage to get a return is the threat of a charge back. Even a small amount of chargebacks (merchants call it friendly fraud) can land you in serious trouble with Visa or MasterCard. If you lose the ability to process cards, your business is basically poof — gone.

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#55

Stripe, Block, and PayPal each solved a massive pain point. PayPal provided a way to pay people and vendors without giving away your credit card number. Square made it easy to accept payment in person on a phone, without an extensive upfront underwriting experience and without expensive fixed monthly fees. Stripe did the same as Square, but for accepting online payments. Fraud and Risk come in many forms, and these p…

The challenger to these will solve for a different problem. Not every transaction needs complex fraud detection or being able for the customer do to chargebacks. For a 3% discount, would customers agree to use something that worked just like cash, where the transfer was instant and couldn't be undone? Then you don't have to worry about fraud, chargebacks, etc.

I would use my debit card even if it behaved exactly like cash, ie, when the recipient got the money, my only way of getting it back is to sue them or call the police.

Obviously any electronic payment system needs to be secure internally but society lasted a long time and made fine progress when having your wallet stolen meant losing your money.

It would be fine to require a person to charge their debit card with a finite amount rather than have it be funded up to the limit of the supporting account and that would solve the last problem compared to cash.

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#56
You know in Europe the card merchants are limited to about 1.3%. And the US could regulate this as well. In Australia you can add the card commission on top of the purchase easily. (Much easier than Stripe for instance).

To save payment fees there are probably easier sections of the payment process to focus on. For instance why do so many merchant banks insist on mandatory FX into 1 currency. This limitation means if I use Stripe I end up paying 9% commissions.

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#57
post #12

Sure it would be possible with "enough" funding, almost by definition. If you can't, then the amount of funding clearly wasn't enough. I doubt you (or anyone btw) could get "enough" funding though. The amount of money you'd need just to get all their existing customers to switch would be monumental.

Exactly. If you're a new company and your choice is either spending lots of capital to accept payments by building it from scratch or pay 2.9%+30¢, the decision is obvious. If you value your time at $100/hr and spend forty hours building such a system—never mind maintaining it—you'd have to process over $130,000 in volume (500 transactions at about $260 each) just to break even on fees.

But you probably won't do it in a week, and you'll spend weeks each year maintaining it. I'd make an educated guess that for the vast majority of companies, it would be cheaper to process your first half million on Stripe than it would be to learn how to build a payments processor, build it, run it, and maintain it. You're saving peanuts for the principle of the matter.

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#58
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do those services also deal with fraud, chargebacks, etc., or are they basically digital cash equivalents?

I thought chargebacks were generally considered a pain: for merchants because it's used by abusive customers, and by customers because it means the merchant (or rather, their payment provider) needs to play a guessing game about whether you're going to do a chargeback and may baselessly deny you the purchase, as well as increasing the cost for everyone due to this increased risk the merchant has Or maybe it's just me…

It's probably just a cultural difference between (broadly) the US, Europe, and Asia. In the US it's increasingly uncommon to buy things with cash or cash-equivalents (Venmo, Zelle, etc.), especially high-value items.

Basically we have very few consumer protection laws compared to the EU, and it's very much a "buyer beware" culture here. If you get screwed by a merchant, most of the time it's just too bad for you, unless the merchant has a good return policy (most big box stores do, most small places don't). We don't have the regulatory protections that EU has.

So credit cards have sprung up to offer not just buy on borrowed money, but also purchase protections that live outside the legal/regulatory frameworks. When you buy something with a credit card, you get charged interest by the bank and the merchant also pays a fee. Some tiny part of those fees get pooled into these protection (and other) services that the card offers its members.

For example, depending on your credit card, some will automatically extend the warranty of things you buy by another year or two. Or price protection is that if the thing you buy goes on sale within 30 days and you find it for a cheaper price, the credit card provider (not the merchant) will issue you a partial refund. The chargeback system is often used for disputing issues (maybe you bought something from an overseas vendor who never delivered and never bothered to answer your emails, or maybe they lied about their return, or maybe provided some terrible product). You file a claim with the credit card company, not the government or the merchant, and the card issuer will mediate on your behalf. If the amount is low enough, they'll often just refund you without a full investigation (it's not worth their time). But it also serves as a sort of review & punishment system for merchants... those who get too high a volume of chargebacks will incur higher fees or be blocked altogether by the credit card issuers, meaning merchants are incentivized to fix customer issues.

Merchants not accepting credit cards here do exist, but they're relatively rare, because so much of the population uses credit cards instead of anything else. Even debit cards (that draw from your bank balance and typically have fewer protections) still have a partnership with Visa or Mastercard to allow you to pay as though it were one of their credit cards (just with a preset balance).

Of course all of this means it sucks for the merchants, but it's way better for the buyers than paying with cash (which leaves you almost always without recourse if anything happens). Our government is so captured and so weak that basically no state or federal agency will be able to help you in most consumer issues. We do have something called the "BBB" (Better Business Bureau), but it's not a government agency, just a fake third party middleman who pretends to do that function (but doesn't actually do anything)... it's basically just an old-fashioned Yelp.

So as a buyer, if you want any protections at all, it's a credit card or nothing.

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#59

look up Red ocean vs blue ocean. Even if it was, there are better uses for a "decade with enough funding" unless you have some competitive advantage, like you're the CEO of Chase Bank or something. If you want to know how possible it is, consider that Bitcoin was released in 2009 and cryptocurrency's success at being used for payments - in the history of the world - it has been used for payments between people for so…

> look up Red ocean vs blue ocean.

For those not wishing to visit another site to learn new vocabulary first:

blue-ocean market = entering into a new markt, red = entering into an existing market

Interestingly, I never heard this term before but now twice in one week someone referred to it (linking an article from 2012 iirc). At least the other one provided a link, albeit to a 5600-word documentary that I'm sure everyone was thrilled to dig into when there are perfectly normal words for it as well (sounds less fancy if everyone is already familiar, though)

Re: Ask HN: Do we need to pay billions in fees to Stripe, Block, PayPal and Visa/MC?

#60
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically, if you use that to buy something, you have no post-purchase protections from the payment provider itself (chargebacks, extended warranties, price protections, etc.?) like the kind credit cards will often provide?

I never needed any of these things in the EEA When I wasn't happy with a product, I either used the warranty or (mandatory) 14-day return option depending on the reason why the product wasn't conforming expectations Perhaps warranty extras are more relevant outside of the EU where warranty laws may be less strict? How even does a payment system do warranty, it knows nothing of the product? And what is price protectio…

I have a longer reply in a sibling post (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41276479), but basically, yeah... in the US we have very few consumer protections, so credit cards offer some of that in lieu of a functional government.

They also have much better protections against fraud (if someone steals your credit card and buys something with it, you're not liable... the bank will pay you back).

If you get scammed with a cash-equivalent (like our Zelle or Cash App or Venmo), too bad, there's no way to get your money back. I know people who've lost thousands of dollars that way, and nobody will protect you from that.

Credit cards here obviously charge high interests (and charge the merchants too) but they offer a lot of protections you otherwise wouldn't get.

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