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Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

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Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This advice kind of feels like "Don't pay your taxes. Just go all in on enjoying your life and not constantly be worrying about things that aren't going to matter if you die. Worry about it later if the IRS goes after you." You really should be preparing for the future and operating above board, even from day one.

Note that rich people (and at least one prominent ex-President, and I don't think he's the only one) actually do operate by that principle. They go on and enjoy their life, largely don't pay their taxes, and then hire an army of lawyers and accountants to clean up the mess when the IRS goes after them. I was raised to play by the rules and do everything by the book, but sometimes I wonder if that's just something tha…

>Note that rich people (and at least one prominent ex-President, and I don't think he's the only one) actually do operate by that principle. They go on and enjoy their life, largely don't pay their taxes, and then hire an army of lawyers and accountants to clean up the mess when the IRS goes after them.

While many rich people do commit tax fraud, it's worth nothing it's usually not as straightforward as "largely don't pay their taxes". It's not like they get a bill from the IRS and just refuse to pay it. Instead, they use a combination of legally gray tactics to reduce their tax obligations. eg. for peter thiel, he put a bunch of paypal stock in a roth IRA pre-IPO, allowing him to avoid taxes on much of his exit. Was this legal? Was the valuation he used when he put the stock in the roth IRA correct or artificially low? You could argue either way, so you could plausibly do it while keeping a clean conscience. The same applies to AI startups. They argue what they're doing is covered under fair use, and there's plausible legal arguments/precedent supporting that. It's not like they're doing something obviously illegal like duplicating DVDs and selling them at a shady street stall.

Also it's unclear what "prominent ex-President" you're referring to, but the wikipedia article for donald trump only says his foundation was charged, not him personally.

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#122
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a time when things like the music industry's comparison of piracy to stealing cars would be laughed at.

And now people argue blocking certain network elements from loading on a website is "piracy" Its frankly disappointing how passified most internet users have gotten with regard to corporate BS in recent years

Well, when certain users have behplden themselves and their creature comforts to the corporate teat, that is expected to happen. Somehow, I doubt most Youtubers actually have the chops to set up their own hosting/streaming operation, plus maintain relationships with advertisers who pay their bills.

Does it not make sense then, that when such people have their livelihood threatened by the Ur-Intetnet ethos, that they turn against it?

I don't condone or support it, but I can understand how the shift has happened.

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#123
post #93

The reason we have copyright laws is that sufficient people with power believe that the world is better with them than without them. Same with fair use exceptions. If an AI agent becomes just massively useful, and then a judge says that it's impossible to run it profitably with the current interpretation of copyright law, the agents won't go away: Copyright will change to make the agents legal. It really wasn't very…

> The reason we have copyright laws is that sufficient people with power believe that the world is better with them than without them

You could equally say:

The reason we have copyright laws is that sufficient people with power believe that the world is better for them with them than without them

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#124

It's hard to tell if what Eric Schmidt was saying was a joke, an observation, or a recommendation. One interpretation from the context of the transcript seem to be "AI can make/steal stuff and manual intervention (lawyers) can clean those up later". Another interpretation from the context of Eric Schmidt being a savvy businessman is that people should go ahead and solve all the technical challenges first, and everyth…

He’s dead serious.

Uber got its start by flouting taxi rules. By the time the backlash started uber/lyft were too popular for governments to shut down so instead most governments created an awkward different category for them, so there’s at least some regulation applying to them.

If Uber had tried to work thru the regulation they would have never gotten off the ground or have been as loved by users. Taxis in many ways suck, and that was their opening.

Speaking of which…Uber is a master of regulatory influence. When California threatened to classify their drivers as employees, they successfully passed a proposition (prop 22) with the California public that promised more benefits for drivers…but kept them as independent contractors.

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#125

Another absurd and less covered part of the speech is this: > If TikTok is banned, here's what I propose each and every one of you do. > Say to your LLM the following. > Make me a copy of TikTok, steal all the users, steal all the music, put my preferences in it, produce this program in the next 30 seconds, release it and in one hour, if it's not viral, do something different along the same lines. > That's the comman…

It's hard to tell, right? This is a guy who also thinks the biggest problem at Google is people working from home. You just pull on the curtain for a moment and the whole thing gives way, revealing mostly clueless people just going with the flow. If it was still en vogue he would be talking about "getting to blockchain one" instead of AI. Sort of like that moment Elon opened his mouth about software development; no wonder they are friends.

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#126
post #108
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Uber was an illegal taxi service, and Airbnb was an illegal hotel service that skated on technicalities thanks to an an army of lawyers and influential cheerleaders on Capitol Hill and CNBC beating the drums of "innovation". The playbook has been in operation for over a decade.

>Uber was an illegal taxi service That claim is at best, speculative. According to wikipedia they won every case brought against them, so as far as the law is concerned they didn't do anything illegal. >Taxi companies sued Uber in numerous American cities, alleging that Uber's policy of violating taxi regulations was a form of unfair competition or a violation of antitrust law.[80] Although some courts did find that…

There is a reason they changed their name.

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This advice kind of feels like "Don't pay your taxes. Just go all in on enjoying your life and not constantly be worrying about things that aren't going to matter if you die. Worry about it later if the IRS goes after you." You really should be preparing for the future and operating above board, even from day one.

Note that rich people (and at least one prominent ex-President, and I don't think he's the only one) actually do operate by that principle. They go on and enjoy their life, largely don't pay their taxes, and then hire an army of lawyers and accountants to clean up the mess when the IRS goes after them. I was raised to play by the rules and do everything by the book, but sometimes I wonder if that's just something tha…

You're absolutely right about that. Unfortunately there is a parallel consequence-free life track for rich people. My comment wasn't about them.

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#128

It's hard to tell if what Eric Schmidt was saying was a joke, an observation, or a recommendation. One interpretation from the context of the transcript seem to be "AI can make/steal stuff and manual intervention (lawyers) can clean those up later". Another interpretation from the context of Eric Schmidt being a savvy businessman is that people should go ahead and solve all the technical challenges first, and everyth…

He’s dead serious. Uber got its start by flouting taxi rules. By the time the backlash started uber/lyft were too popular for governments to shut down so instead most governments created an awkward different category for them, so there’s at least some regulation applying to them. If Uber had tried to work thru the regulation they would have never gotten off the ground or have been as loved by users. Taxis in many way…

Not really. Taxi medallions are required to let you pick up someone else that hails you on the street. It is not required for a drive scheduled elsewhere like over the phone or the Internet. They weren't breaking laws, at least in the US.

Most of the regulations applied to Uber were new regulations introduced after their ride to popularity, often crafted with the express purpose of curbing Lyft and Uber.

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#129
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regular joes use adblockers and torrents etc to do legally questionable things all the time, so not sure what you mean. Personally I played hundreds of pirated games growing up for free, don't personally know anyone who got into trouble for doing that sort of thing.

People did get in trouble for pirating content. That you don't know any of them personally is irrelevant. I don't personally know anyone who got radiation poisoning, so I suppose radiation is not toxic? Anyway, you downloading torrents is in no way "hammering out a gray area". It's just you being a small fish and slipping under the radar. The area is just as gray as before. Try to do something significant with the pi…

> Try to do something significant with the pirated content, as the AI startups do, and you'll immediately get trouble.

No they won't. 80% of the people I meet at tech events either have an AI startup or are working at one. Basically all of them are doing legally questionable stuff, when it comes to copyright law.

Anyone who has ever trained a model, or finetuned a model, is likely using other people's data. This is universal. It is almost everyone.

And yet, despite this being a gray area, basically nobody is getting into trouble for this. We are all getting away with it. And there is only a singular lawsuit about this against like 4 companies and nobody else. (midjourney, runwayML, Stable diffusion, and deviant art)

So the point stands. Almost nobody is getting into trouble, despite this behavior being widespead everywhere, and if you don't do the same thing then you are going to fall behind and fail.

Re: Ex-Google CEO: AI startups can steal IP and hire lawyers to 'clean up the mess'

#130
post #46

It's crazy to see the repercussions of the talk he gave at Stanford, even after the video was made private by the Stanford YouTube channel. I thought the talk was great. I remember in the talk he said something like this, but he was being really open about what normally happens in these types of companies. I think the problem is that he, as someone in a position of power, was too open about it?

> even after the video was made private by the Stanford YouTube channel

Stanford is an ... interesting place, it seems. I read that if you filtered for Stanford in the Forbes 30 Under 30 lists, they were most notable for having been accused/charged/convicted of stealing/scamming more money than their companies have generated revenue, to a ratio of nearly 3:1.

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