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X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

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Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#141

Post by masklinn »

withinboredom wrote: post #14
fsloth wrote: post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

In the US, in most (all?) jurisdictions, your employer doesn't really need to have a reason to fire you. They can fire everyone wearing red shirts, if they wanted to. There are also very few places providing leave (outside of white-collar positions). For example, my wife was given two weeks off from her job after having my son. The state we lived in only required maternity leave to be implemented at companies having…

> your employer doesn't really need to have a reason to fire you.

IIRC it's much safer not to provide any either — except in Montana which I believe requires Just Cause after probation, as there are only a handful of statutory exceptions to at-will employment, and most of them are very, very hard to prove without an extensive paper trail... or the employer spelling it out when they fire you.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#142

Post by Rinzler89 »

throwaway_9321 wrote: post #139
thor-rodrigues wrote: post #2

I am glad to hear that workers rights are being enforced in Europe. As an employee in Germany, it sounds deranged to receive an email saying I have one day to completely change my work contract, or be fired from my job.

It's nice to have these labour laws, but they only help if you find yourself in the right situation, like this guy, a somewhat senior employee who stands to get a nice payout, and can therefore afford to engage in a legal battle. But the most vulnerable of us are new grads or people with little experience, and most of the time the abuse from the bosses falls in a gray zone, where it is not clearly illegal, but still…

>As an employee in Germany, I feel abused and helpless.

It's worse in Austria where you have at will employment with a notice period and can be laid off without any reason so many companies can subtly force you to accept a new contract or just get laid off.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#143

Post by Leherenn »

consp wrote: post #76
ekianjo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this also means companies are much more hesitant to hire

Having short term contracts solved this a long time ago and is mostly a fallacy.

Short term contracts have pretty big downsides though. It's basically impossible to get a mortgage on a short term contract, or more generally any kind of loan. Even renting is difficult.

That's why many EU countries have pretty strict limitations on short term contracts, like how many you can do in a row. It results in a huge reliance on contractors.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#144

Post by 2716057 »

perlgeek wrote: post #107
thor-rodrigues wrote: post #2

I am glad to hear that workers rights are being enforced in Europe. As an employee in Germany, it sounds deranged to receive an email saying I have one day to completely change my work contract, or be fired from my job.

BTW in Germany, if a company decides to lay off people just to save money, they have to coordinate with some government agency -- and if the company doesn't have financial trouble, those layoffs can be blocked. This happened to Alphabet/Google when they wanted to lay off 6% of their workforce, but were wildly profitable. They couldn't in Germany. (This probably wouldn't have applied in the Twitter case, because Twitt…

German here. I would be very interested in the government agency you are alluding to.

There are laws regulating layoffs due to operating conditions (Kuendigungsschutzgesetz). But these laws do not allow the government to intervene directly in company affairs - that would be communism! If a company wants to restructure "for internal reasons" (rationalizations are specifically mentioned) it is allowed to do so. This includes offshoring, moving workload to contractors, or simply getting rid of a department.

However: many of the large companies (eg. SAP, BASF, carmakers,...) have collective labor agreements. These agreements often exclude layoffs due to operational conditions within a certain period. Under very special circumstances layoffs are still possible in such arrangements, but the companies have to prove their economic hardship and the layoffs often end with a sort of golden handshake. If they happen at all :)

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#145

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

throwaway_9321 wrote: post #139
thor-rodrigues wrote: post #2

I am glad to hear that workers rights are being enforced in Europe. As an employee in Germany, it sounds deranged to receive an email saying I have one day to completely change my work contract, or be fired from my job.

It's nice to have these labour laws, but they only help if you find yourself in the right situation, like this guy, a somewhat senior employee who stands to get a nice payout, and can therefore afford to engage in a legal battle. But the most vulnerable of us are new grads or people with little experience, and most of the time the abuse from the bosses falls in a gray zone, where it is not clearly illegal, but still…

In Germany, every large company is required to have a worker's committee, elected by the employees. They have the ability to block certain kinds of company actions, and negotiate all kinds of policies with the company. They would probably have your back in a situation like the one described in this article.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#146

Post by ben_w »

andrepd wrote: post #94
hyperman1 wrote: post #18

If this is allowed, the concept of a contract is meaningless, as all terms change whenever one party feels like it. So Musk feels to be above contract law. The whole basis for law based commerce goes out of the window. Musk's world view is incredibly dangerous for a law based country. This means €550k is a way to low number as punishment. It might be enough as restitution for the employee, but an additional, much str…

I would say it's not Musk's view itself that is dangerous, more the fact that this clown has a horde of fans.

Given that neither he (to the best of my knowledge) nor the general population have any formal legal training, I think that most people have views which are as sensible and well-informed as Musk's: barely at all — ChatGPT sure knows more than I do and I don't trust it either.

I think the problem is that wealth disparities make anything involving expertise (including but not limited to legal battles) increasingly one-sided as the disparity increases. This is where unions, public prosecutors, wealth taxes, class action suits, and the idea that contracts can be voided in part or in whole by courts, all play a part.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#147

Post by tialaramex »

rsynnott wrote: post #68
withinboredom wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are you nuts? There's a new law still in committee: https://www.scstatehouse.gov/billsearch.php?billnumbers=4226... > What? Why is it called vacation then Having more than two weeks off in a year is pretty strange. I worked at a place with "unlimited vacation" once, and you weren't allowed to take off more than two weeks at a time until someone took off two weeks every three weeks ... and that ended that policy. Th…

> Having more than two weeks off in a year is pretty strange. I mean, not that strange: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...

Yeah, I took July off this year and last year. Obviously that needs some up-front notice to ensure there's cover, but I tell my manager in the spring and it's fine.

Americans are very, very strange and the fact they think they're normal is part of that.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#148

Post by GJim »

justincormack wrote: post #83
pavlov wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free” In many European countries unions provide free legal support. Join the union even if things are good for you now, and you don’t have to go hunting for legal help if one day you feel like your employer isn’t being fair.

In the UK ACAS provide free support as well.

ACAS are terrific....

...a government body providing impartial advice for employers and employees to improve industrial relations. I can't recommend them enough.

https://www.acas.org.uk/

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#149

Post by vidarh »

tovej wrote: post #122
refurb wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it wrong for people to voice views that you disagree with? The value of HN is hearing differing view points. It would be nice if people on HN tried to engage in a good willed nature rather than treating discussions like a struggle session. But to the topic at hand, in rapidly changing sectors, high levels of friction when it comes to employment has a cost. There is no free lunch in economics. When hiring employees…

That is unbelievable to me. You always have the right to quit, and penalties are rare. The laws depend on the country you're in of course, but I've never heard of three months, and I've lived in Europe my whole life. Would you mind sharing the country you were working in?

In Norway, 3 months notice is the norm, and you can be expected to work it. In practice, there's rarely much value in holding people to it (though it can happen) because someone who really doesn't want to be there isn't going to be a productive employee. But lots of people do stay the 3 months because people looking to hire are also used to often having to wait 3 months to get someone on full time.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#150

Post by lazide »

snowpid wrote: post #125
refurb wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it wrong for people to voice views that you disagree with? The value of HN is hearing differing view points. It would be nice if people on HN tried to engage in a good willed nature rather than treating discussions like a struggle session. But to the topic at hand, in rapidly changing sectors, high levels of friction when it comes to employment has a cost. There is no free lunch in economics. When hiring employees…

The problem on such discussion that many Americans (I am not sure if you are but experience says yes you're) tend to use only straw man arguments (and that's why the reason they are ignored) "When hiring employees means you’re hiring them effectively for life, it creates disincentives for hiring. " In Germany it is not the case. "The other thing is the employee obligations it creates. When I worked in Europ" Europe i…

How is it not the case in Germany?

The only German tech company I’m aware of was a fintech which was a massive fraud that collapsed on itself.

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