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X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

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11–20 of 474 posts

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#11
post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

Right to Work laws, despite the name makes pretty much any firing legal. Unless an employer says something like "You are my least favorite race and for that reason I'm firing you" they're in the clear.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#12
post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

I think this is probably legal in the US, since most employment is "at-will," meaning both parties can terminate it at any time, for any reason, or for no reason at all (with some specific exceptions that probably wouldn't apply in this case).

Your employment contract may have terms that override the at-will relationship, in which case the employer has to follow the contract's terms. You may also be unionized, in which case the union will have negotiated termination procedures with your employer. And you may live in a State that has additional rules for terminating contracts.

But as a general rule, I believe this is legal in the US in most cases.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#13
post #5

[flagged]

On the plus side, it is always soothing to see other countries stand up for their citizens. They get the best of both worlds. Their citizens enjoy good protections in many areas and they get the enjoy the fruit of the American ~suckers~ I mean workers.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#14
post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

In the US, in most (all?) jurisdictions, your employer doesn't really need to have a reason to fire you. They can fire everyone wearing red shirts, if they wanted to.

There are also very few places providing leave (outside of white-collar positions). For example, my wife was given two weeks off from her job after having my son. The state we lived in only required maternity leave to be implemented at companies having more than 50 employees. Oh, and those two weeks were unpaid.

In some places, taking a vacation longer than three weeks requires the company to stop paying your salary and consider you "abandoning" your job, or submitting special paperwork.

I do not miss the US; moving to the EU was the best decision I ever made.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#15

I am glad to hear that workers rights are being enforced in Europe. As an employee in Germany, it sounds deranged to receive an email saying I have one day to completely change my work contract, or be fired from my job.

It's the main reason I chose to move to Europe instead of the US, despite potentially making more money in the US. I very much appreciate the labor protections in most EU countries.

You are effectively buying those labour protections with the difference in salary.

Companies could even offer that as an option. We pay you $97k with no labour protections, or $68k but we promise to give you all the labour rights that Germany has, including nice long holidays, unions, no unpaid overtime, can't be fired without cause, etc. Your choice.

(And those figures are the median programmer salary in the USA and Germany respectively)

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#16
post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

From everything I read, in US, in general, outside of specific list of protected reasons, or a contract specifically describing conditions for contact termination, one can be fired at any time. This works both ways - employee can quit any time too. I wouldn't be surprised musk just applied the same logic worldwide and let lawyers deal with consequences

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#17
post #4

Would this be legal in any jurisdiction (click-or-be-fired)? I am not familiar with US labour laws, are employees actually at the level of indentured servants considering terms of employment (which I would expect to be a contract between TWO parties)?

Not a lawyer but broadly most forms of employment in the US is considered to be 'at will' and can be terminated by either party at any time for most any reason (excluding membership of a protected class). If you were fired for failing to respond to the yes-or-resign I believe you would be able to claim unemployment because they can't force you to resign and changing the terms of employment to force a resignation is a 'constructive dismissal'. American employers tend to be big fans of lying and hoping you don't know your rights though, or denying valid unemployment claims because they know not everyone will contest it.

Some people do have employment contracts with more consideration but as I understand it that mostly applies to union work and C suite executive positions.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#18
If this is allowed, the concept of a contract is meaningless, as all terms change whenever one party feels like it.

So Musk feels to be above contract law. The whole basis for law based commerce goes out of the window. Musk's world view is incredibly dangerous for a law based country.

This means €550k is a way to low number as punishment. It might be enough as restitution for the employee, but an additional, much stronger and personal punishment should be given to anyone who agreed with this way of working.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#19
This employer behavior is a result of the business model of collecting a critical mass of the users and later cutting operation costs.

It's viable because Twitter/X controls the access to the audiences of their users - if you leave, you lose your network.

I'd like next gen social media platforms to allow transitions from one provider to another. While related, I think this is a different topic than centralized/federated.

Re: X ordered to pay €550k to Irish employee fired after yes-or-resign ultimatum

#20
post #8

I am glad to hear that workers rights are being enforced in Europe. As an employee in Germany, it sounds deranged to receive an email saying I have one day to completely change my work contract, or be fired from my job.

I'm so glad most European countries have robust labour laws which often favour the employee in case of doubt, not the employer. This type of behaviour - unilaterally changing the employment agreement without even specifying them in their entirety! - should never be possible. I hope other employees and EU countries follow suit and slap X with more fines, if this impacted other citizens as well.

The problem is that you can still get fooled or bullied into accepting a bad deal. I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free. Don't sign something put in front of you before you had a chance to understand your position. The person who wants you to sign it had ample time to do that, you didn't. Same goes for accepting things that seem unfair via email or verbally, that can weaken your position already.

I've been on both sides of the fence (mostly in Germany). As an employer, my approach was usually to be nice to employees I wanted to get rid of and to offer them a good severance package proactively. If you push an employee and give them ammunition to sue (and you fail to fool/bully them) it's gonna get a lot more expensive. Not to mention distracting/emotional. Just keep in mind that if you hire an FTE, you'll have to mentally put money aside to exit them at some point in the future. Hiring freelancers is more expensive, but doesn't carry these problems. I tend to mix FTEs and freelancers, partly to distribute the risks and costs.

When talking to people in bad situations with their employer, I'm always surprised how little they know and how easily they're willing to take the short end of the stick. There's a deal between you and the company that specifies what you'll do for them and what you'll get in return, with legal context surrounding it. I think it's also good to be nice and willing to compromise in that situation, but employees generally don't seem to be aware of what a powerful position they're actually in, and don't feel they "deserve" that, or don't want to upset anyone. It's business at the end of the day, contracts. Don't be a bad business person, it's not like CEOs will respect or like you more if you don't put up a fight. Typically the opposite.

The lack of these protections is one thing that, IMHO, warrants the comparatively high US salaries in tech. More risk, more reward - business 101 stuff.

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