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You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes

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Re: You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes

#111

In a world were 47 of 53 landmark cancer research papers were found to not be replicable... where one scientist admitted (after the meta-researchers tried 50 times to replicate the result and failed) that they had run the experiment 6 times and got the result once and reported that because it made a better "story"... where the act of suppressing refutations of other's bogus research is "culturally commonplace"... Som…

Well the one nice thing about scientific research is that it's open (cue conspiracy theories), and that you can usually read the paper/draft. No one is asking you to "just believe" research; that would be stupid, and it's not how the scientific process works. The fact that you are dismissing all research outright is ridiculous, and willfully ignorant. Your sources are shabby, and you talk of "science" and "scientists…

> No one is asking you to "just believe" research;

Did you read the study the parent post is talking about? A well funded laboratory, that was trying to not "just believe" research (as everyone else apparently does) was trying to replicate these results. If the science was good, all it should have taken is time and money (both of which they had enough of). And yet, 47 out of 53 celebrated results published in peer reviewed papers of the highest caliber could not be replicated . Let that sink for a minute before you reply.

> there is _no_ reason to say that all research cannot be trusted.

Ok. Your reason to state that research can be trusted is that it is eventually replicated (thus confirmed), or thrown out (thus shown false), is that right? (You didn't state that as your reason, so perhaps you have other ideas -- but that's a common one, so I'll reply to it).

Assuming that's the case -- do you have any idea what percentage of results are replicated? And how much time after official publication?

Because if it takes e.g. 30 years until a bad publication is discredited, and (as the data point given by the parent shows) there are areas in which 90% of the data apparently can be discredited when you try to replicate it -- then, there actually might be reason to distrust research in general, because at any given point in time, more than 90% of non-discredited published results are wrong.

See also http://saveyourself.ca/articles/ioannidis.php (and the paper it references). This situation is not science fiction. 90% un-replicatable publications is probably limited to very few subjects. But 50% overall in medicine and biology is totally believable.

Which is not to say science (the abstract idea / discipline / method) is wrong - it's right. It's just that the things we human practice and often call "science" is very, very far from the ideal of science. Ignore that at your own peril.

Re: You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes

#112
As a caveat, you should only do this in response to data based articles. Articles that are themselves anecdotal, should receive anecdotes that are contrarian. I think the more general idea is comments should be held to similar standards of evidence that the article presents.

Re: You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes

#113
As a caveat, you should only do this in response to data based articles. Articles that are themselves anecdotal, should receive anecdotes that are contrarian. I think the more general idea is comments should be held to similar standards of evidence that the article presents.

Re: You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes

#114
This is an interesting first submission by a Hacker News participant who joined the community 551 days ago. The core idea in the submitted blog post (by the submitter here) is

"Contrarian anecdotes like these are particularly common

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4076643

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4076066

in medical discussions, even in fairly rational communities like HN. I find this particularly insidious (though the commenters mean no harm), because it can ultimately sway readers from taking advantage of statistically backed evidence for or against medical cures. Most topics aren’t as serious as medicine, but the type of harm done is the same, only on a lesser scale."

The basic problem, as the interesting comments here illustrate, is that human thinking has biases that ratchet discussions in certain directions even if disagreement and debate is vigorous. The general issue of human cognitive biases was well discussed in Keith R. Stanovich's book What Intelligence Tests Miss: The Psychology of Rational Thought.

http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=97803001646...

http://www.amazon.com/What-Intelligence-Tests-Miss-Psycholog...

The author is an experienced cognitive science researcher and author of a previous book How to Think Straight about Psychology. He writes about aspects of human cognition that are not tapped by IQ tests. He is part of the mainstream of psychology in feeling comfortable with calling what is estimated by IQ tests "intelligence," but he disagrees that there are no other important aspects of human cognition. Rather, Stanovich says, there are many aspects of human cognition that can be summed up as "rationality" that explain why high-IQ people (he would say "intelligent people") do stupid things. Stanovich names a new concept, "dysrationalia," and explores the boundaries of that concept at the beginning of his book. His shows a welcome convergence in the point of view of the best writers on IQ testing, as James R. Flynn's recent book What Is Intelligence? supports these conclusions from a different direction with different evidence.

Stanovich develops a theoretical framework, based on the latest cognitive science, and illustrated by diagrams in his book, of the autonomous mind (rapid problem-solving modules with simple procedures evolutionarily developed or developed by practice), the algorithmic mind (roughly what IQ tests probe, characterized by fluid intelligence), and the reflective mind (habits of thinking and tools for rational cognition). He uses this framework to show how cognition tapped by IQ tests ("intelligence") interacts with various cognitive errors to produce dysrationalia. He describes several kinds of dysrationalia in detailed chapters in his book, referring to cases of human thinkers performing as cognitive misers, which is the default for all human beings, and posing many interesting problems that have been used in research to demonstrate cognitive errors.

For many kinds of errors in cognition, as Stanovich points out with multiple citations to peer-reviewed published research, the performance of high-IQ individuals is no better at all than the performance of low-IQ individuals. The default behavior of being a cognitive miser applies to everyone, as it is strongly selected for by evolution. In some cases, an experimenter can prompt a test subject on effective strategies to minimize cognitive errors, and in some of those cases prompted high-IQ individuals perform better than control groups. Stanovich concludes with dismay in a sentence he writes in bold print: "Intelligent people perform better only when you tell them what to do!"

Stanovich gives you the reader the chance to put your own cognition to the test. Many famous cognitive tests that have been presented to thousands of subjects in dozens of studies are included in the book. Read along, and try those cognitive tests on yourself. Stanovich comments that if the many cognitive tasks found in cognitive research were included in the item content of IQ tests, we would change the rank-ordering of many test-takers, and some persons now called intelligent would be called average, while some other people who are now called average would be called highly intelligent.

Stanovich then goes on to discuss the term "mindware" coined by David Perkins and illustrates two kinds of "mindware" problems. Some--most--people have little knowledge of correct reasoning processes, which Stanovich calls having "mindware gaps," and thus make many errors of reasoning. And most people have quite a lot of "contaminated mindware," ideas and beliefs that lead to repeated irrational behavior. High IQ does nothing to protect thinkers from contaminated mindware. Indeed, some forms of contaminated mindware appeal to high-IQ individuals by the complicated structure of the false belief system. He includes information about a survey of a high-IQ society that found widespread belief in false concepts from pseudoscience among the society members.

Near the end of the book, Stanovich revises his diagram of a cognitive model of the relationship between intelligence and rationality, and mentions the problem of serial associative cognition with focal bias, a form of thinking that requires fluid intelligence but that nonetheless is irrational. So there are some errors of cognition that are not helped at all by higher IQ.

In his last chapter, Stanovich raises the question of how different college admission procedures might be if they explicitly favored rationality, rather than IQ proxies such as high SAT scores, and lists some of social costs of widespread irrationality. He mentions some aspects of sound cognition that are learnable, and I encouraged my teenage son to read that section. He also makes the intriguing observation, "It is an interesting open question, for example, whether race and social class differences on measures of rationality would be found to be as large as those displayed on intelligence tests."

Applying these concepts to my observation of Hacker News discussions after 1309 days since joining the community, I notice that indeed most Hacker News participants (I don't claim to be an exception) enter into discussions supposing that their own comments are rational and based on sound evidence and logic. Discussions of medical treatment issues, the main concern of the submitted blog post, are highly emotional (many of us know of sad examples of close relatives who have suffered from long illnesses or who have died young despite heroic treatment) and thus personal anecdotes have strong saliency in such discussions. The process of rationally evaluating medical treatments is the subject on entire group blogs with daily posts

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/about-science-...

and has huge implications for public policy. Not only is safe and effective medical treatment and prevention a matter of life and death, it is a matter of hundreds of billions of dollars of personal and tax-subsidized spending around the world, so it is important to get right.

Blog post author and submitter here tylerhobbs suggests disregarding an individual contrary anecdote, or a group of contrary anecdotes, as a response to a general statement about effective treatment or risk reduction established by a scientifically valid

http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html

study. With that suggestion I must agree. Even medical practitioners themselves do have difficulty sticking to the evidence,

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/how-do-you-fee...

and it doesn't advance the discussion here to bring up a few heart-wrenching personal stories if the weight of the evidence is contrary to the cognitive miser's easy conclusion from such a story.

That said, I see that the submitter here has developed an empirical understanding of what gets us going in a Hacker News discussion. Making a definite statement about what ought to be downvoted works much better in gaining comments and karma than asking an open-ended question about what should be upvoted, and I'm still curious about what kinds of comments most deserve to be upvoted. I'd like to learn from other people's advice on that issue how to promote more rational thinking here and how all of us can learn from one another about evaluating evidence for controversial claims.

Re: You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes

#115
But .... but .... anecdotes are what politicians use to get elected !!!! (e.g. Joe the Plumber, et al).

If we downvote anecdotes, we won't have a justification to vote for scumbag politician with a heartfelt story to tell!!

edit: here's a terrific example!!! http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/alabama-law-drives-out-i...

Re: You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes

#116

The idea that there was an impending credit crisis was a "contrarian anecdote" in 2008. The idea that the US Government conducted illegal eavesdropping/wiretapping operations against US Citizens was a "contrarian anecdote" in 2003. This blog post condescendingly claims that HN readers are not sophisticated enough to balance out the sources that are input to their rational decision making process. In reality, contrari…

The idea that there was an impending credit crisis was a "contrarian anecdote" in 2008.

As the saying goes: they laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Einstein.

And they laughed at Bozo the Clown.

Re: You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because if that's true then there is no standard to judge whether one model is "higher-fidelity" and in fact there is nothing for science to do at all. Do you really believe that? Theoretically, there is a "universal truth", but for all intents and purposes, there isn't outside the realm of Math. We judge science's fidelity by how well it correlates with repeatable experiments - which may be characterized by some "…

I never made any claim regarding my own certainty of knowledge, that is a straw man. Please refrain from giving me personal advice when you know nothing about me. There is a huge difference between saying "something is true, but I don't know what (yet)" and "there is no such thing as truth"; between "a lot of people try to commandeer medicine to sell things" and "there is no actual truth of anything to discover in th…

> Please refrain from giving me personal advice when you know nothing about me.

I was not giving you any personal advice. I was taking your "you" as a general statement to the reader, and replying with the same language pattern (e.g. if I said "you can bring a horse to water", I would actually mean "one can bring a horse to water".)

> There is a huge difference between saying "something is true, but I don't know what (yet)" and "there is no such thing as truth"; between "a lot of people try to commandeer medicine to sell things" and "there is no actual truth of anything to discover in the field of medicine".

Indeed, there is a huge difference, I don't think anyone is disputing that.

What some people (me included) are disputing is that what is considered "the state of the art" in the many sciences (other than math and physics), is actually not the result of rigorous scientific study that it is assumed to be, and that therefore well reasoned and supported contrarian explanations, data and opinions should be welcome (they aren't; there's active suppression).

Re: You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you cannot control all the variables, it's important to have a large enough sample that the randomness in each direction for the different variables essentially cancels itself out. Also what does "the statistical significance of short-term studies is zero" mean? I don't think it means what you think it means. I would argue that short-term studies (for nutrition anyway) have little clinical significance, despite…

Not even a large sample will help against systematic errors.

Good point; upvoted. However I was just trying to address the idea that there are ways of minimizing problems in study design. No study is ever perfect, but many of them are sufficient.

Re: You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes

#119
You shouldn't downvote contrarian anecdotes. You should just take them at face value for what they are.

His notion that in the field of medicine you should disregard contrarian anecdotes because there's statistical evidence is horrible advice. If you actually looked at said statistical evidence, you'd realize it is very rarely strong, and often only relevant to 70% or so of the population (which is great for 2 out of 3, but useless for the third one).

"Best practices" often aren't, and common sense is not at all common in medicine. A significant number of published results are plain wrong (see http://saveyourself.ca/articles/ioannidis.php and the paper it references). A lot of medical advice is wrong, harmful or useless; The archives of seth roberts' blog are an enlightening read.

Re: You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes

#120
If the comments below are too laborious for you to read, here is the TL;DR of them:

(1) Use your personal discretion. Some anecdotes are funny. Others can be perfectly cogent rebuttals, especially when people make overbroad statements.[a]

(2) The author is right in some respects: you need to be aware of the ways that stupid stories can bias you. Even being aware of this fact is sometimes not sufficient, so use downvoting to try to protect others.

(3) Lots of people believe in anecdotal responses to anecdotal original-claims. [b]

(4) A lot of people tried to be funny by offering anecdotes to be downvoted. Unfortunately, people haven't consistently taken the advice above, so they are not all in one place (at the bottom). That is a pity -- this would have been a fun and interesting use of downvotes.

[a] Actually, the discussion is full of overbroad statements of this form like "no universal truth" and someone presenting "nothing should be above questioning" as above question.

[b] I would like to formally respond that this is generally stupid -- you don't clean up a house by flinging crap at the crap. Your mileage may vary.

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