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Texas sues GM for unlaw­ful­ly collecting and selling dri­vers' pri­vate data [pdf]

texasattorneygeneral.gov

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Re: Texas sues GM for unlaw­ful­ly collecting and selling dri­vers' pri­vate data [pdf]

#81
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an efficient market insurance premiums are essentially zero sum. The more that one person pays to offset their own risk, the less everyone else pays. Safe drivers subsidize unsafe drivers and this subsidy can and should be reduced when possible with better predictive information.

Firstly, the entire port of insurance is to spread risk. If the the market for insurance is "too efficient" at determining who is high-risk and who is not, then it is no longer fulfilling its social function. Secondly, you seem to be implying that only aggressive drivers are getting flagged by the data. But the computer doesn't know if you accelerate and brake hard because you're an aggressive driver, or if your circ…

>Firstly, the entire port of insurance is to spread risk. If the the market for insurance is "too efficient" at determining who is high-risk and who is not, then it is no longer fulfilling its social function.

This might be definitionally correct, but that doesn't mean it's right.

There's no reason you shouldn't rewarded for being a better-than-average driver (or conversely, punished for being worse).

>Maybe you have to commute to your job in heavy stop-and-go traffic with difficult merges.

You don't think we have the technical ability to determine this, to some degree? We have self driving cars for crying out loud.

>If you're driving down a street and a ball bounces out from behind a parked car do you slam on your brakes out of fear that there is a child chasing after it, or do you think that hitting the brakes might make your premiums go up so you just hope that there isn't a child coming.

What a reach.

You hit the brakes, because if there is a child, and you hit them, your premiums will be even higher.

Re: Texas sues GM for unlaw­ful­ly collecting and selling dri­vers' pri­vate data [pdf]

#82
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this model, what incentivizes safe drivers to have insurance? And then when a "safe driver" wipes out in a freak snow storm and racks up a million dollars in damages that they can't afford to pay, where's the win-win?

The same thing that incentivizes them right now, legal requirements to maintain a certain minimum amount of auto liability insurance in order to be able to legally drive. Which, by the way, is currently far less than a million dollars in every jurisdiction I know. https://www.autoinsurance.org/car-insurance-requirements/

may i introduce you to the jurisdiction of germany? 7.5m for personal injury, 1.3m for property damage and 50k for ?financial loss? (ger:reiner vermögensschaden) [1][2]. granted that's in euro so exchange rates are to be considered

[1] https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/deckungssumme-kfz-haftpflich... [2] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/pflvg/anlage.html

edit: as a point of comparison, i can't find it at moment but i think i remember my last car insurance was covering 100m for personal insuries

Re: Texas sues GM for unlaw­ful­ly collecting and selling dri­vers' pri­vate data [pdf]

#83
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an efficient market insurance premiums are essentially zero sum. The more that one person pays to offset their own risk, the less everyone else pays. Safe drivers subsidize unsafe drivers and this subsidy can and should be reduced when possible with better predictive information.

Firstly, the entire port of insurance is to spread risk. If the the market for insurance is "too efficient" at determining who is high-risk and who is not, then it is no longer fulfilling its social function. Secondly, you seem to be implying that only aggressive drivers are getting flagged by the data. But the computer doesn't know if you accelerate and brake hard because you're an aggressive driver, or if your circ…

> the computer doesn't know if you accelerate and brake hard because you're an aggressive driver, or if your circumstances require it

Preface: I'm not strongly for these hyper monitoring systems of driving patterns for insurance.

Often being in a situation where you have to slam on your brakes means even if you're a good driver you're in a lot more riskier environments than a driver who doesn't often have to. A good driver that is rarely in a situation where he has to slam on his brakes probably gets into fewer collisions than the same driver in an environment where he needs to do it often. Often having to brake hard is still potentially an indicator of higher claim likliehood.

Re: Texas sues GM for unlaw­ful­ly collecting and selling dri­vers' pri­vate data [pdf]

#84
They also should be looking at other brands who did this - like Subaru, Hyundai/Kia, Mitsubishi, etc. I recall that Subaru in particular did not revise their location sharing policy when articles came out earlier this year about how these companies resell data to brokers like Lexis Nexis or Verisk. If you get a new Subaru with a Sirius XM radio for example, something that gets forced onto many or all configuration of cars (not sure), by default there is an option selected for sharing your location data with them. That might be true for any brand that shoves satellite radio into your vehicle. But you also are giving them authorization to do whatever they want with such data when you sign up for convenience services like the ability to lock/unlock/remote start the car from your phone. The fine print for those digital services includes giving your consent from what I read.

Re: Texas sues GM for unlaw­ful­ly collecting and selling dri­vers' pri­vate data [pdf]

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I think he is a real POS with bad beliefs, but I am not sure that say 4 & 7 are directly relevant to being a crook.

A crook is someone who is dishonest. You don't think someone cheating on their wife is dishonest?

Re: Texas sues GM for unlaw­ful­ly collecting and selling dri­vers' pri­vate data [pdf]

#86
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this model, what incentivizes safe drivers to have insurance? And then when a "safe driver" wipes out in a freak snow storm and racks up a million dollars in damages that they can't afford to pay, where's the win-win?

The same thing that incentivizes them right now, legal requirements to maintain a certain minimum amount of auto liability insurance in order to be able to legally drive. Which, by the way, is currently far less than a million dollars in every jurisdiction I know. https://www.autoinsurance.org/car-insurance-requirements/

If the market is efficient, why do you need the force of state violence to maintain it?

Re: Texas sues GM for unlaw­ful­ly collecting and selling dri­vers' pri­vate data [pdf]

#87
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what else does it break-break, even if you do kill the antenna, more that just the annoyance of a light? Integrated GPS, because it uses cellular to “enhance” that? What other risks are there? Haven’t we seen CAN bus “hacked” over the air to shut down vehicles before? (Even ignoring the intentional ability to do so by the OEM, granted to law enforcement)

In my opinion who cares if it breaks the car gps. I have my phone that already does this function and never needed my car to do this. I would a thousand time over delete my car gps if it meant no tracking.

Meanwhile I'm actually the opposite. I'd prefer for my phone to pull from the car's GPS system instead of trying to figure out its own signaling. It would probably be a lot better since it's not locked in a steel cage and in suboptimal placement.

Re: Texas sues GM for unlaw­ful­ly collecting and selling dri­vers' pri­vate data [pdf]

#88
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, the entire port of insurance is to spread risk. If the the market for insurance is "too efficient" at determining who is high-risk and who is not, then it is no longer fulfilling its social function. Secondly, you seem to be implying that only aggressive drivers are getting flagged by the data. But the computer doesn't know if you accelerate and brake hard because you're an aggressive driver, or if your circ…

>Firstly, the entire port of insurance is to spread risk. If the the market for insurance is "too efficient" at determining who is high-risk and who is not, then it is no longer fulfilling its social function. Insurance is a business, where the insured pays an insurer to pay for costs for damages that the insured cannot afford to pay. The insurer's job is to calculate the amount of premium necessary to ensure they ca…

> If the goal is to subsidize a specific population, then that should be a government function via taxes.

As I understand, all 50 states require insurers to write high risk drivers policies through assigned risk plans. I guess you could shuffle the money through the state as well, but it seems like an inefficient way to accomplish the same.

But really, car insurance and their respective mandates exist to protect the innocent, not drivers themselves. e.g. No state requires that you insure your property.

Re: Texas sues GM for unlaw­ful­ly collecting and selling dri­vers' pri­vate data [pdf]

#89
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you be allowed to use illegal data? Especially if you have the means to know if it's illegal or not. Not even Ebay/Craigslist has managed to keep itself immune from liability of vendors selling stolen items.

Insurance is regulated so maybe it's different, but plenty of companies rely on illegally obtained data. Websites like haveibeenpwned.com and identity theft protection services couldn't exist without hacked/stolen information. I guess the distinction is that they didn't commission it.

Also, newspapers regularly publish information that was obtained illegally. e.g. someone breaking an NDA.

Re: Texas sues GM for unlaw­ful­ly collecting and selling dri­vers' pri­vate data [pdf]

#90
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? You'd probably have better outcomes for everyone with more information. Unsafe drivers might start reigning in their bad habits because it is costing them money every month, and safe drivers will save money. Seems like a win-win. I'd love it if my dash cam could do ALPR and send a video to the registered insurance agency when I see some absolutely ludicrous driving.

In this model, what incentivizes safe drivers to have insurance? And then when a "safe driver" wipes out in a freak snow storm and racks up a million dollars in damages that they can't afford to pay, where's the win-win?

The incentive would be being able to pay very little to get coverage which insures you even for the circumstances where a safe driver would crash.

Wouldn't a safe driver who was considering unwisely dropping coverage be more likely to drop coverage if coverage was expensive(because they are subsidizing unsafe drivers), as opposed to if it was cheap?

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