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Things I learned from teaching (2023)

claytonwramsey.com

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Re: Things I learned from teaching (2023)

#71

Post by gavmor »

watwut wrote: post #70
gavmor wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This dynamic is not impossible to overcome. It's often as simple as reminding students that we are responsible for one another's success by shifting the goal from "finish the exercise" to "ensure we've both learned how to finish the exercise". "Lone wolves" and "lazy" students, I've found, often warm up when given 1:1 attention of peers.

> It's often as simple as reminding students that we are responsible for one another's success by shifting the goal from "finish the exercise" to "ensure we've both learned how to finish the exercise". Then it ends up with faster student trying to explain to the slower one and failing. While the slower one still does not really have an option to do it independently and think it through, until they get home. This pair…

Thank you for sharing!

> the slower one still does not really have an option to do it independently and think it through

This is a good point, and a constraint of the institution. When I was the slower student, I was blessed with the inordinate chutzpah to shamelessly ask faster students for explanations ad nauseum. I was never concerned with time, deadlines, assignments, nor grades: I was maximizing my understanding at the expense of anyone who would entertain my curiosity.

I took my time in a way that most students, perhaps reasonably, feel they can't afford to. I wish all students felt as entitled to knowledge as I'd been raised to feel—and as my instructors suggested!

As a professional, being the weaker pair has presented fantastic opportunities to observe and learn from senior developers. I pity the remote junior who interfaces with an infinitesimal fraction of the fidelity I've enjoyed.

In short, "never be the best player in the band" remains sound advice for persons of my bent... in accommodating institutions.

Re: Things I learned from teaching (2023)

#72

Post by oneshtein »

watwut wrote: post #39
robaato wrote: post #31

Something I discovered almost by accident when doing training for a larger group of "students" than had PCs available for exercises, was that the concept of "paired exercises" worked very well. So I then started pretty much mandating it for subsequent training where possible. If a single student has a problem with an exercise they tend to keep quiet. If 2 of them bounce ideas off each other and still have a problem,…

Paired exercises fairly often end up with faster student doing it all and slower student not knowing what is going on. I was sometimes that slower student and it just meant that I had to redo everything later if I actually wanted to learn.

Problem can be solved by switching the student in front of computer and by allowing for students to team up at will or be alone.

Re: Things I learned from teaching (2023)

#73

Post by aleph_minus_one »

gavmor wrote: post #71
watwut wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's often as simple as reminding students that we are responsible for one another's success by shifting the goal from "finish the exercise" to "ensure we've both learned how to finish the exercise". Then it ends up with faster student trying to explain to the slower one and failing. While the slower one still does not really have an option to do it independently and think it through, until they get home. This pair…

Thank you for sharing! > the slower one still does not really have an option to do it independently and think it through This is a good point, and a constraint of the institution. When I was the slower student, I was blessed with the inordinate chutzpah to shamelessly ask faster students for explanations ad nauseum. I was never concerned with time, deadlines, assignments, nor grades: I was maximizing my understanding…

> When I was the slower student, I was blessed with the inordinate chutzpah to shamelessly ask faster students for explanations ad nauseum.

This assumes that the other person has a "thinking style" that is compatible with yours, and that thus the explanations are helpful for you. For example if the other student is "sufficiently advanced" from you, it can happen that this is not the case.

Re: Things I learned from teaching (2023)

#74

Post by gavmor »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #73
gavmor wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for sharing! > the slower one still does not really have an option to do it independently and think it through This is a good point, and a constraint of the institution. When I was the slower student, I was blessed with the inordinate chutzpah to shamelessly ask faster students for explanations ad nauseum. I was never concerned with time, deadlines, assignments, nor grades: I was maximizing my understanding…

> When I was the slower student, I was blessed with the inordinate chutzpah to shamelessly ask faster students for explanations ad nauseum. This assumes that the other person has a "thinking style" that is compatible with yours, and that thus the explanations are helpful for you. For example if the other student is "sufficiently advanced" from you, it can happen that this is not the case.

> This assumes that the other person has a "thinking style" that is compatible with yours

No one has a thinking style compatible with mine. Communication is difficult, but the whole point is to share adopt novel ways of thinking. By the end of the conversation, both participants' "thinking styles" have changed.

Sure, some folks' lexicon and mental models might overlap more, but there's no one (speaking English) from whom I can't learn. Reminds me of that old line "you can't get there from here!" which I always considered funny, but you're saying it's true?

Wish I knew more about these "thinking styles" you're talking about, because I've never met someone I couldn't communicate with (in English).

Re: Things I learned from teaching (2023)

#75

Post by aleph_minus_one »

gavmor wrote: post #74
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I was the slower student, I was blessed with the inordinate chutzpah to shamelessly ask faster students for explanations ad nauseum. This assumes that the other person has a "thinking style" that is compatible with yours, and that thus the explanations are helpful for you. For example if the other student is "sufficiently advanced" from you, it can happen that this is not the case.

> This assumes that the other person has a "thinking style" that is compatible with yours No one has a thinking style compatible with mine. Communication is difficult, but the whole point is to share adopt novel ways of thinking. By the end of the conversation, both participants' "thinking styles" have changed. Sure, some folks' lexicon and mental models might overlap more, but there's no one (speaking English) from…

> Wish I knew more about these "thinking styles" you're talking about, because I've never met someone I couldn't communicate with (in English).

It is plausible that you are sufficiently smart and thus never (or at least rarely) had such problems.

To give an extreme example: when Grigori Perelman published his papers about his proof of the geometrization conjecture, even experts in his area had a lot of difficulties understanding his proof (and thus verifying the correctness of it). Only after multiple groups of mathematicians came up with better understandable versions of the central arguments of his proof, (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geometrization_co... and https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Poincar%C3%A9_con... ), they became convinced of the correctness of Perelman's proof.

This was clearly a particularly marked example, but in a school pupils of very different IQs and thinking styles are present. So I wouldn't say that this problem (pupil not understanding another pupil's solution) is uncommon at schools.

Re: Things I learned from teaching (2023)

#76

Post by gavmor »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #75
gavmor wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This assumes that the other person has a "thinking style" that is compatible with yours No one has a thinking style compatible with mine. Communication is difficult, but the whole point is to share adopt novel ways of thinking. By the end of the conversation, both participants' "thinking styles" have changed. Sure, some folks' lexicon and mental models might overlap more, but there's no one (speaking English) from…

> Wish I knew more about these "thinking styles" you're talking about, because I've never met someone I couldn't communicate with (in English). It is plausible that you are sufficiently smart and thus never (or at least rarely) had such problems. To give an extreme example: when Grigori Perelman published his papers about his proof of the geometrization conjecture, even experts in his area had a lot of difficulties u…

Perelman? I always thought his proof was self-evident.

Kidding!

For papers, yes, there's a lot of difficulty. I'm not sure it's possible to demand sense from a paper in the way that one can from a discursive partner.

As Emmanuel Levinas puts it in his "Toward the Other" (1963):

> This makes no sense. Our text must be understood in another way. I worked hard at it. I told my troubles to my friends. For [the text] requires discourse and companionship. Woe to the self-taught!

Admittedly, he immediately follows:

> Of course one must have good luck and find intelligent interlocutors.

So if I were to accept his authority, I'd have to forfeit my position entirely!

Re: Things I learned from teaching (2023)

#77

Post by watwut »

gavmor wrote: post #71
watwut wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's often as simple as reminding students that we are responsible for one another's success by shifting the goal from "finish the exercise" to "ensure we've both learned how to finish the exercise". Then it ends up with faster student trying to explain to the slower one and failing. While the slower one still does not really have an option to do it independently and think it through, until they get home. This pair…

Thank you for sharing! > the slower one still does not really have an option to do it independently and think it through This is a good point, and a constraint of the institution. When I was the slower student, I was blessed with the inordinate chutzpah to shamelessly ask faster students for explanations ad nauseum. I was never concerned with time, deadlines, assignments, nor grades: I was maximizing my understanding…

> I was blessed with the inordinate chutzpah to shamelessly ask faster students for explanations ad nauseum.

That is NOT thinking it through independently. That is someone explaining it to you again and again. Those two are not the same at all. Thinking it independently means that YOU think about issues and actually personally figure it out them.

> I pity the remote junior who interfaces with an infinitesimal fraction of the fidelity I've enjoyed.

Although offtopic, honestly, the primary reason to pity them is that they are massively micromanaged compared to what we had and get only negative feedback. Modern process is a senior that will tell them everything they had done wrong, then he throws a bunch of personal preferences that pretend are objective wrongs ... and they rarely get positive feedback or thanks.

Re: Things I learned from teaching (2023)

#78

Post by watwut »

gavmor wrote: post #74
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I was the slower student, I was blessed with the inordinate chutzpah to shamelessly ask faster students for explanations ad nauseum. This assumes that the other person has a "thinking style" that is compatible with yours, and that thus the explanations are helpful for you. For example if the other student is "sufficiently advanced" from you, it can happen that this is not the case.

> This assumes that the other person has a "thinking style" that is compatible with yours No one has a thinking style compatible with mine. Communication is difficult, but the whole point is to share adopt novel ways of thinking. By the end of the conversation, both participants' "thinking styles" have changed. Sure, some folks' lexicon and mental models might overlap more, but there's no one (speaking English) from…

> No one has a thinking style compatible with mine. Communication is difficult, but the whole point is to share adopt novel ways of thinking. By the end of the conversation, both participants' "thinking styles" have changed.

I can either focus on difficult conversation parts or at topic at hand. Cant really do both.

So, this means I will do only the social thing and wont get to be able to focus on what I was supposed to learn in the first place.

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