You Are the Exception to the Rule • Hacker News Board

Re: You Are the Exception to the Rule

#31

Post by delinka » Sun, Jun 17, 2012, 10:01 PM UTC

unimpressive wrote: post #12

apl wrote: post #3

This type of saccharine feel-good prose irritates to no end. No, chances are you're not the exception to the rule of mediocrity; that's just a matter of statistics. Believing so in absence of hard evidence to the contrary is delusional and won't make things better. Entrepeneurs fail every day. Hundreds, maybe thousands. Don't fall for the cheap words of encouragement. [ADDENDUM: I still don't trust the "Most coders c…

> I still don't trust the "Most coders can't do FizzBuzz" meme that generally accompanies the flowery you're-a-special-snowflake-talk. Well of course, such talk misses the point. A "Coder" who can't do Fizzbuzz isn't a coder, or a programmer, or a hacker, or a computer scientist. It's a negative test, if you can't do it, then your not ready for a real programming gig yet. From http://imranontech.com/2007/01/24/using-…

"It's a negative test, if you can't do it, then [you're] not ready for a real programming gig yet."

To which I will add, if you can do it, it doesn't mean that you are ready for a real programming gig. Yet.

Re: You Are the Exception to the Rule

#32

Post by dougws » Sun, Jun 17, 2012, 10:02 PM UTC

This is absolutely true. Market validation goes both ways! Don't assume a product is either viable or unviable without confirmation from the intended consumers.

Re: You Are the Exception to the Rule

#33

Post by tptacek » Sun, Jun 17, 2012, 10:04 PM UTC

dougws wrote: post #30

apl wrote: post #3

This type of saccharine feel-good prose irritates to no end. No, chances are you're not the exception to the rule of mediocrity; that's just a matter of statistics. Believing so in absence of hard evidence to the contrary is delusional and won't make things better. Entrepeneurs fail every day. Hundreds, maybe thousands. Don't fall for the cheap words of encouragement. [ADDENDUM: I still don't trust the "Most coders c…

Please re-read the article--the author is absolutely not making the point you think he is. All he is saying is that hackers are less likely to be willing to pay for software than most people, so the fact that the typical hacker news reader is unwilling to pay for something doesn't mean that it isn't a viable product. It's a shame that the top comment on this article is attacking a straw-man argument.

Yep. I reread the top comment after your comment and I'm pretty sure 'apl just skimmed this post; regardless, he's missed the point entirely.

Re: You Are the Exception to the Rule

#34

Post by chrischen » Sun, Jun 17, 2012, 10:26 PM UTC

apl wrote: post #3

This type of saccharine feel-good prose irritates to no end. No, chances are you're not the exception to the rule of mediocrity; that's just a matter of statistics. Believing so in absence of hard evidence to the contrary is delusional and won't make things better. Entrepeneurs fail every day. Hundreds, maybe thousands. Don't fall for the cheap words of encouragement. [ADDENDUM: I still don't trust the "Most coders c…

There's a difference between "you're probably going to fail" and "you're probably going to fail so don't even hope (or try)."

Re: You Are the Exception to the Rule

#35

Post by apl » Sun, Jun 17, 2012, 10:26 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #33

dougws wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please re-read the article--the author is absolutely not making the point you think he is. All he is saying is that hackers are less likely to be willing to pay for software than most people, so the fact that the typical hacker news reader is unwilling to pay for something doesn't mean that it isn't a viable product. It's a shame that the top comment on this article is attacking a straw-man argument.

Yep. I reread the top comment after your comment and I'm pretty sure 'apl just skimmed this post; regardless, he's missed the point entirely.

I re-read the article and have to admit that you and everyone else here is in the right. Crucially, I misread this paragraph as the kind of self-glorification that happens to be way too common among so-called "makers":

  > You see most people aren't hackers. Most people can't
  > build a todo app. Most people can't use an API.

He doesn't draw a line between makers and programmers, but between makers and the general population. That is reasonable. I still maintain that the optimism is misplaced (product business is difficult, even for great developers) and that the FizzBuzz myth has gotten out of control.

Other than that: point taken.

Re: You Are the Exception to the Rule

#36

Post by jasonlotito » Sun, Jun 17, 2012, 10:55 PM UTC

apl wrote: post #35

tptacek wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I reread the top comment after your comment and I'm pretty sure 'apl just skimmed this post; regardless, he's missed the point entirely.

I re-read the article and have to admit that you and everyone else here is in the right. Crucially, I misread this paragraph as the kind of self-glorification that happens to be way too common among so-called "makers": > You see most people aren't hackers. Most people can't > build a todo app. Most people can't use an API. He doesn't draw a line between makers and programmers, but between makers and the general popul…

Regarding the FizzBuzz myth, I think it's selection bias that makes us think it's just a myth. After all, everyone I work with would find the FizzBuzz problem child's play to the point where we, like you, don't trust that it's meaningful.

But having recently had the experience of going to a local job fair with the goal of looking for students to fill internships, I met with over 70 individuals that day. While we didn't administer the FizzBuzz test, I'm confident that less than a handful could have completed it during the interview process.

This is by no means concrete proof. But, I think for many of us, we suffer from selection bias, because even the worse people we work with are light years ahead of what the great majority of "programmers" can do.

Re: You Are the Exception to the Rule

#37

Post by ilkandi » Sun, Jun 17, 2012, 11:12 PM UTC

I met a 50ish solo programmer a few months ago. His application handles an issue for a specific subset of nonprofit org (I'm probably not giving away too much if I say, churches). The app is not web enabled, it's not social, it doesn't run on ios android or mac. From our conversation I inferred he spends hardly any time on marketing it because he doesn't need more users. Yet he makes a comfortable living solely from the licenses, doesn't touch the app for weeks at a time, and adds new features on his own schedule.

Re: You Are the Exception to the Rule

#38

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 17, 2012, 11:26 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #33

dougws wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please re-read the article--the author is absolutely not making the point you think he is. All he is saying is that hackers are less likely to be willing to pay for software than most people, so the fact that the typical hacker news reader is unwilling to pay for something doesn't mean that it isn't a viable product. It's a shame that the top comment on this article is attacking a straw-man argument.

Yep. I reread the top comment after your comment and I'm pretty sure 'apl just skimmed this post; regardless, he's missed the point entirely.

[deleted]

Re: You Are the Exception to the Rule

#39

Post by patdennis » Sun, Jun 17, 2012, 11:27 PM UTC

As a non-programmer who works in a field that 99% of programmers aren't aware even exists, I would like to point out that there are a lot of simple software programs to be made for specialized purposes in various fields. They don't exist because nobody who can build them knows they're necessary, and the people who need them don't know they're possible.

Re: You Are the Exception to the Rule

#40

Post by csallen » Sun, Jun 17, 2012, 11:47 PM UTC

apl wrote: post #3

This type of saccharine feel-good prose irritates to no end. No, chances are you're not the exception to the rule of mediocrity; that's just a matter of statistics. Believing so in absence of hard evidence to the contrary is delusional and won't make things better. Entrepeneurs fail every day. Hundreds, maybe thousands. Don't fall for the cheap words of encouragement. [ADDENDUM: I still don't trust the "Most coders c…

Your response reads as if you didn't fully grasp the article, and instead attempted to extrapolate what it might say based on the first paragraph alone.

The author doesn't claim that readers are the exception to mediocrity. Nor does he claim that they are the exception to failure. The article is targeted at programmers. He's merely saying that programmers possess a unique perspective that makes them literally "exceptionally" cynical to paying for software. He's also pointing out that it's easy to incorrectly project one's own cynism onto others.