Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#881

Post by GeekyBear » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 1:17 PM UTC

bearjaws wrote: post #878

GeekyBear wrote: post #874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? There is the simple solution taken by companies like Spotify and Netflix. Have a free app for users, but only accept payments through your own website. In which case, Apple doesn't get a dime.

Spotify had a nightmare of a time getting to that point. Same with Floatplane, a streaming platform from LTT. If you actually try to copy Spotify / Amazon you find out very quickly they have exclusive deals and their own account managers. You actually will not get approved for 5-6 months if you try to copy them, and even use their same exact UI and verbiage. This is the part of the problem with Apple app store.

As far as I've seen, this isn't any sort of exclusive on Apple's App Store or Google's Play Store.

Free apps that allow users to access paid subscription content aren't required to accept payments for the subscription through the app.

> Offer subscriptions through your own website or app rather than the app stores. This allows you to process payments directly and avoid the 30% fees. However, you'll need to provide your own payment processing and customer support.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-avoid-paying-a-30-co...

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#882

Post by fluidcruft » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 1:17 PM UTC

espadrine wrote: post #862

jliptzin wrote: post #859

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then make an app whose sole purpose is to open a website in the browser

That is disallowed by section 4.2 of the App Review Guidelines[0]: > Your app should include features, content, and UI that elevate it beyond a repackaged website. [0]: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/

Then make an app whose sole purpose is to display bookmarks as icons on a scrollable and searchable canvas.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#883

Post by stubish » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 1:19 PM UTC

Could this backfire on Apple? Patreon may not be able to point out to users that they will save 30% if they use the web interface, but thousands of creators will, guiding them along with a few choice words about Apple.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#884

Post by rpdillon » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 1:19 PM UTC

dwaite wrote: post #791

johnnyanmac wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the counter-argument to this is that Apple would ultimately be blamed in the minds of consumers for not keeping those devices protected from bad software. To be brash, maybe consumers need to learn how to protect themselves or move to dumb hardware that is impractical to hack. I don't understand this trend of blaming corporations for not being the de facto gatekeeper of security. They should help minimize spam/malwa…

As a technically minded person, I must say I don’t know how to protect myself from secretly malicious apps. A weather app needs my location and network access. It doesn’t need to sell ongoing location tracking information associated with my device identifier and IP addresses to marketing companies.

I've been a software engineer for a while, but I don't solve this using a technical approach. I've avoided having apps abuse me by choosing apps written by folks that have no incentive to abuse me. This means going to open source and community-driven apps as much as possible. Of course there will always be proprietary apps and in those cases I need to look at the entity that wrote the app and how much I trust it in terms of their development practices and incentives.

I've used Android for more than 15 years and have never had an issue with malware or viruses or anything of the sort. 90% of this is refusing to install apps that I don't absolutely need. And the rest of it is probably using open source and community apps instead of corporate apps whenever possible.

Unfortunately, the approach of "de-commercializing your phone" is not something that Apple will ever support or allow because it doesn't make them any money. Luckily on Android, I have access to FDroid, which makes this entire approach possible.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#885

Post by sva_ » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 1:19 PM UTC

maccard wrote: post #76

lovethevoid wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Apples case they changed that several years ago so you can definitely charge your Apple users more. However you will get the app rejected if you show any sign of showing users that you can buy it cheaper elsewhere than the Apple system. You can potentially get away with it by keeping things vague, but even then you might get rejected for “discouraging the in-app purchase system”. This doesnt apply to the EU in whi…

I don't think that's unreasonable - the user found your app through apple. Imagine if I sold tools, and I hung out in Home Depot next to our tools display telling people "hey, if you buy them directly from me, you can save 30%" I can't see that lasting very long.

You should be able to list the individual components of the final price which might then include "30% Apple app store fee" for having your customers be more informed about what they spend their money on.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#886

Post by pyrale » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 1:20 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #262

neilv wrote: post #125

Since at least the 1980s, IT had the concepts of "open systems" and "interoperation", to support market competition and innovation. And we later did things like the Web and other open standards. Then Apple comes along, and uses its market position as a hardware and OS vendor, to make a nonstandard software download thing that could've been a Web site. In parallel, Apple also made open-standards Web apps unattractive…

Since at least the 1980s, IT had the concepts of "open systems" and "interoperation", to support market competition and innovation. And we later did things like the Web and other open standards. Then Apple comes along, Wow. I don't know if that's selective memory, or revisionist history, but you've got a huge dose of the stuff. No, interoperability isn't perfect now, but it's a heck of a lot better than it was in the…

> No, interoperability isn't perfect now, but it's a heck of a lot better than it was in the 80's.

It was much worse, but, surprisingly, the desire to improve it was much more widespread. Lots of hard work got done to make it, in your words, "a heck of a lot better". As a consequence, the design philosophy held by the people that had done that work then was that an open standard was a good thing (e.g. RSS).

Nowadays, though, it seems like the dominant philosophy is that creating walled gardens is better, and while interop is much better than it used to be in some aspects, the direction we're taking for new infrastructure isn't so good (e.g. messaging and the way the mainstream messaging apps disregard open standards).

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#887

Post by dangus » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 1:20 PM UTC

talldayo wrote: post #368

dangus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's all very true, I find it notable to point out that the company stopped making butterfly keyboards 5 years ago. The folks out there that are still bitter about this really need to find something else to occupy their mindspace. In related news, I just got my keyboard settlement check!

I'm not bringing it up apropos of nothing; it's evidence that Apple doesn't listen to blatant (and epistemically correct) outcry from their customers when they make a mistake. When the Butterfly keyboard released people were literally shocked; I remember getting messages from people asking if their Macbook keyboard shipped broken after the honeymoon phase wore off. There were SGA members on Twitter bemoaning how they…

I think you’re really blowing this out of proportion and treading into conspiracy theory territory. I don’t think this is at all an example of a deliberately flawed product, that’s a tall accusation.

I don’t think any corporation goes into product design hoping to give out free repair service and settle class action lawsuit claims.

Remember that when Apple finally introduced the 2019 MacBook Pro that reverted the keyboard design, it was only 3 years after the original 15” MacBook Pro butterfly model came out. It’s not like they were sitting on their hands for an extremely long time ignoring their customers as you accuse. They completely reverted the design in about 3 years and seemingly forced their lead designer into retirement.

As far as admitting the problem exists publicly, offering proactive refunds, etc, find me a public corporation that will do that and I’ll give you a pot of gold. And recall that the service bulletin and offer to provide free repairs is an acknowledgment of the problem.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#888

Post by KingMob » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 1:22 PM UTC

carlosjobim wrote: post #868

espadrine wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is cultural: a growing population do not know what the Web is. When they are asked to search for a website, they open the app store and search there. If there is no result, they give up.

For good reason. The web is a cess pit which people will avoid if they can.

A term which in no way also applies to apps, that have vastly more ability to spy on you, and DMCA protections against interop and modification. /s

At least the spying is efficient, I guess.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#889

Post by KingMob » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 1:24 PM UTC

troupo wrote: post #828

meiraleal wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is baffling how some random people will come to Apple's defense from the most unimaginable angles. "Safari is lacking but should be enough for 95% of the apps". Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%?

> Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%? No. We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech. And for hundreds of thousands of apps that people could implement using web tech, but don't want to for various reasons, both big (too many workarounds) to small (abysmal performance for the simplest tasks)

> We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech.

These are not disconnected, though. The web COULD be made to support more of these use cases, but Apple wouldn't be able to collect 30% of the profits. Safari was a laggard for many years while the App Store was being entrenched.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#890

Post by CivBase » Tue, Aug 13, 2024, 1:25 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #650

danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

> Why does patreon need its own app?

Notifications. Performance. Responsiveness. Bandwidth. Offline access. And a lot of users simply find apps to be more convenient than browser bookmarks. I use the web interface for Patreon, but I can see why some users would want the app.

Why does Apple themselves have apps for things like maps, news, stocks, weather, video chats, etc? These all rely on web services and could theoretically be handled in the browser. I don't think any of these examples even provide users the ability to buy anything. Clearly Apple recognizes a value in some services being available through native mobile apps.