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Three month suspension for Python core developer

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Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#71

Post by bankcust08385 »

subjectsigma wrote: post #36

I read stuff like this and think to myself that contributing to a large open source project simply isn’t worth it

Yep. I was banned from the Ruby community on Github for literally nothing misinterpretation without any chance of clarification. That's the sort of standard FOSS short-shrift, rude, humorless, victimhood-point counting, cliquey, infantile elitism that is the norm rather than the exception. Communities who let in the crybullies, dramatic lawyers, and narcissists to run things dissipate into shit. Forgiveness, tolerance, chill, and benefit-of-the-doubt are lost arts.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#72

Post by gjvc »

bankcust08385 wrote: post #71
subjectsigma wrote: post #36

I read stuff like this and think to myself that contributing to a large open source project simply isn’t worth it

Yep. I was banned from the Ruby community on Github for literally nothing misinterpretation without any chance of clarification. That's the sort of standard FOSS short-shrift, rude, humorless, victimhood-point counting, cliquey, infantile elitism that is the norm rather than the exception. Communities who let in the crybullies, dramatic lawyers, and narcissists to run things dissipate into shit. Forgiveness, toleranc…

Communities who let in the crybullies, dramatic lawyers, and narcissists to run things dissipate into shit. Forgiveness, tolerance, chill, and benefit-of-the-doubt are lost arts.

I need to print this out and frame it. same can be said for many companies.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#73

Post by a-french-anon »

hungie wrote: post #45
a-french-anon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry in advance if this is "a bit" flamebait-y, but the irony is too strong for me to not point out: Working around another person’s problematic behavior and having to teach newcomers to the group to do the same is a known psychological antipattern. When talking about "neurodivergent" people having communication issues, but the now enshrined "use my pronouns or else" thing is conveniently forgotten.

There's a huge gap between someone being an odious asshole whom everyone just accepts, and, "this is how I'd prefer to be addressed". Like, if a "Robert" says "I prefer Bob" and you still call them Robert, you're choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says, "I prefer they/them" and you use her, you are choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says "I will be an asshole in public and won't accept critique on that"…

[flagged]

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#74

Post by zarzavat »

WCSTombs wrote: post #18

> Overloading the discussion of the bylaws change (47 out of 177 posts in topic at the time the moderators closed the topic), which created an atmosphere of fear, uncertainty, and doubt... > Defending “reverse racism” and “reverse sexism”, concepts not backed by empirical evidence, which could be seen as deliberate intimidation or creating an exclusionary environment. So simply having an opinion and expressing it cou…

The claim that there’s no empirical evidence of “reverse sexism” is particularly absurd. Women can be just as sexist as men, especially since society deems it to be socially acceptable for women to denigrate men (“men are stupid”) or to objectify men in a way that would lead to severe social consequences if a man were to make similar comments about women.

I suspect what they mean is that they don’t consider such things to be within their definition of sexism because of their socialization. Nothing about empiricism.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#75

Post by [deleted] »

a-french-anon wrote: post #44
JonChesterfield wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I skimmed through that looking for the context. It seems to be that Tim didn't want the governing group to have even more power to kick people out of the project, argued his point eloquently and was then kicked off the project. E.g. > Like David too, I’m not opposed to making it impossible for the Board to do this on its own - I just want a higher bar than a simple majority vote. My years on the Board matched David’s…

What makes this "discussion" even more suspicious is how the (arguably justified) fear that this could lead to a Nix-style takeover is answered each time with "no problem here, just The Nix Community^tm doing what's right". Of course, your interpretation will vary with your ideology.

[deleted]

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#76

Post by Tade0 »

The Tim Peters?

I dug into that link where SNL is mentioned and honestly the connection made there to me seems a bit of a stretch.

I'm not in the Python ecosystem but I've seen this sort of drama in the Node.js community and, aside from resulting in a fork, it spurred a debate about governance of the project and an eventual change.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#77

Post by csirac2 »

a-french-anon wrote: post #73
hungie wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge gap between someone being an odious asshole whom everyone just accepts, and, "this is how I'd prefer to be addressed". Like, if a "Robert" says "I prefer Bob" and you still call them Robert, you're choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says, "I prefer they/them" and you use her, you are choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says "I will be an asshole in public and won't accept critique on that"…

[flagged]

Can I just say what a genuinely fascinating perspective you have there

That pronouns are somehow an exercise of power that must be submitted to, and not just a common courtesy because we're not all sensitive snowflakes

And that this is in any way remotely comparable to being tortured and killed for religious beliefs

I wonder how you feel about the nearly 1.7% of people born intersex that you meet and definitely work with, that have been newborns treated by your own GP... occupying possibly the "wrong" pronoun according to whatever this week's definition of Definitely Binary means

I'm sure people getting tortured and killed for religious beliefs will definitely relate to this discussion

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#78

Post by astroid »

zarzavat wrote: post #74
WCSTombs wrote: post #18

> Overloading the discussion of the bylaws change (47 out of 177 posts in topic at the time the moderators closed the topic), which created an atmosphere of fear, uncertainty, and doubt... > Defending “reverse racism” and “reverse sexism”, concepts not backed by empirical evidence, which could be seen as deliberate intimidation or creating an exclusionary environment. So simply having an opinion and expressing it cou…

The claim that there’s no empirical evidence of “reverse sexism” is particularly absurd. Women can be just as sexist as men, especially since society deems it to be socially acceptable for women to denigrate men (“men are stupid”) or to objectify men in a way that would lead to severe social consequences if a man were to make similar comments about women. I suspect what they mean is that they don’t consider such thin…

You are missing a key point of their worldview: *Everything* comes down to 'critical theory' in one way or another. Whether you are focusing on race, sex, or anything else that can be the subject of criticism the outcome is the same.

Women CANT be sexist, because 'men' have more privilege and historically have less authority. So as the oppressed sex, they can't be sexist because they 'lack power'. So statements like "I hate all men, they are stupid violent thugs" are not viewed as sexist.

The same goes for race -- while you didn't call it out specifically, it's the exact same mindset. It doesn't matter if a BIPOC person literally kills a White person and says "I hate all white people and I killed them because they are white". This is not racist to these people, because that person supposedly lacks 'power'.

They (hypothetically) had and utilized the power to kill, but that isn't 'real' or 'institutional' power, so it simply does not count.

Both concepts are equally stupid and fly in the face of reality. And the inevitable outcome is CONSTANT conflict.

The conflict stems from being 'critical' of these different institutions and people who have 'power' or 'privilege' -- but the cycle never ends, so even if you manage to remove all Men or White people from existence, a power vacuum will exist and the criticism will be levied on whomever fills the role.

It's the perfect way to perpetually conquer and divide, where you get to claim perpetual victim status, while ensuring the voice of the majority -never- matters because of their supposed 'institutional power'. The end result of this thinking will be less tolerance, less diversity, and more asinine stuff like this python situation.

They mean EXACTLY what they said, take them at their word.

Re: Three month suspension for Python core developer

#79

Post by a-french-anon »

csirac2 wrote: post #77
a-french-anon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Can I just say what a genuinely fascinating perspective you have there That pronouns are somehow an exercise of power that must be submitted to, and not just a common courtesy because we're not all sensitive snowflakes And that this is in any way remotely comparable to being tortured and killed for religious beliefs I wonder how you feel about the nearly 1.7% of people born intersex that you meet and definitely work…

> not just a common courtesy because we're not all sensitive snowflakes

It's not courtesy if it's non consensual, same way that wealth redistribution isn't charity. Statistically and rhetorically speaking, the pronouns enforcers' beneficiaries are the sensitive snowflakes who can't do with a few people not indulging in their delusions.

You completely misunderstand the point. The vastly different level of threat itself is of no importance to the comparison, since the goal isn't to enact said threat, it's to force people to publicly betray their convictions, to mentally castrate them. It's nothing more than Orwell's "2 + 2 = 5", if you prefer this analogy.

Maybe it's a special snowflake thing to want to live with your head held high, standing for what you think is true, what do I know...

> I wonder how you feel about the nearly 1.7% of people born intersex that you meet and definitely work with

There's nothing to feel, these people are neither male or female and would indeed deserve a specific pronoun, but pragmatism would make it as logical as making all cars fit for one-armed people. Also, your 1.7% is a bit biased, reading its source from Wikipedia's article.

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